[Senate Hearing 117-316]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 117-316
NOMINATIONS OF JULIA R. GORDON, DAVID UEJIO, AND SOLOMON J. GREENE
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON
BANKING,HOUSING,AND URBAN AFFAIRS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
NOMINATIONS OF:
JULIA R. GORDON, OF MARYLAND, TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HOUSING AND
URBAN DEVELOPMENT
__________
DAVID UEJIO, OF CALIFORNIA, TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HOUSING AND
URBAN DEVELOPMENT
__________
SOLOMON J. GREENE, OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, TO BE ASSISTANT
SECRETARY OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT
__________
AUGUST 5, 2021
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban
Affairs
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available at: https: //www.govinfo.gov /
___________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
48-124 PDF WASHINGTON : 2022
COMMITTEE ON BANKING, HOUSING, AND URBAN AFFAIRS
SHERROD BROWN, Ohio, Chairman
JACK REED, Rhode Island PATRICK J. TOOMEY, Pennsylvania
ROBERT MENENDEZ, New Jersey RICHARD C. SHELBY, Alabama
JON TESTER, Montana MIKE CRAPO, Idaho
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts MIKE ROUNDS, South Dakota
CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland THOM TILLIS, North Carolina
CATHERINE CORTEZ MASTO, Nevada JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana
TINA SMITH, Minnesota BILL HAGERTY, Tennessee
KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona CYNTHIA LUMMIS, Wyoming
JON OSSOFF, Georgia JERRY MORAN, Kansas
RAPHAEL WARNOCK, Georgia KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota
STEVE DAINES, Montana
Laura Swanson, Staff Director
Brad Grantz, Republican Staff Director
Elisha Tuku, Chief Counsel
Mohammad Aslami, Counsel
Dan Sullivan, Republican Chief Counsel
John Crews, Republican Policy Director
Cameron Ricker, Chief Clerk
Shelvin Simmons, IT Director
Charles J. Moffat, Hearing Clerk
(ii)
C O N T E N T S
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THURSDAY, AUGUST 5, 2021
Page
Opening statement of Chairman Brown.............................. 1
Prepared statement....................................... 32
Opening statements, comments, or prepared statements of:
Senator Toomey............................................... 3
Prepared statement....................................... 33
NOMINEES
Julia R. Gordon, of Maryland, to be Assistant Secretary of
Housing and Urban Development.................................. 5
Prepared statement........................................... 34
Biographical sketch of nominee............................... 36
Responses to written questions of:
Chairman Brown........................................... 82
Senator Toomey........................................... 82
Senator Menendez......................................... 88
Senator Crapo............................................ 89
David Uejio, of California, to be Assistant Secretary of Housing
and Urban Development.......................................... 7
Prepared statement........................................... 46
Biographical sketch of nominee............................... 47
Responses to written questions of:
Chairman Brown........................................... 90
Senator Toomey........................................... 91
Solomon J. Greene, of the District of Columbia, to be Assistant
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development..................... 8
Prepared statement........................................... 57
Biographical sketch of nominee............................... 58
Responses to written questions of:
Chairman Brown........................................... 99
Senator Toomey........................................... 101
Senator Menendez......................................... 109
Additional Material Supplied for the Record
Letters in support of the nomination of Julia R. Gordon.......... 111
Letters in opposition to the nominations of Julia R. Gordon and
Solomon J. Greene.............................................. 133
(iii)
NOMINATIONS OF JULIA R. GORDON, DAVID UEJIO, AND SOLOMON J. GREENE
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THURSDAY, AUGUST 5, 2021
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met at 10:07 a.m., in room 538, Dirksen
Senate Office Building, Hon. Sherrod Brown, Chairman of the
Committee, presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN SHERROD BROWN
Chairman Brown. The Senate Committee on Banking, Housing,
and Urban Affairs will come to order.
Today, we will consider three highly qualified nominations
for critical roles at the Department of Housing and Urban
Development. Julia Gordon has been nominated to serve as
Assistant Secretary of Housing and Commissioner of the Federal
Housing Administration. Ms. Gordon currently serves as
president of the National Community Stabilization Trust, a
nonprofit organization that supports neighborhood
revitalization and affordable home ownership. Previously, Ms.
Gordon served as the manager of the single-family policy team
at the Federal Housing Finance Agency, working to help families
stay in their homes following the 2008 financial crisis.
If confirmed, she would lead the FHA. As Commissioner of
FHA, Ms. Gordon would play a pivotal role in helping thousands
of homeowners weather this pandemic and stay in their homes.
Welcome, Ms. Gordon. Glad you are here.
David Uejio is the President's nominee to serve as
Assistant Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity. Mr.
Uejio currently serves as Acting Director of the Consumer
Financial Protection Bureau. Previously, he served in different
roles in public service at NIH, OPM, and DoD. As Assistant
Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity, he would
oversee the implementation and enforcement of laws that protect
homeowners and renters from housing discrimination.
We are glad to have you here today, Mr. Uejio. Thank you
for joining us.
Finally, we welcome Mr. Solomon Greene. He is the
President's nominee to serve as Assistant Secretary for Policy
Development and Research. Mr. Greene currently serves as a
senior fellow at the Urban Institute, where he leads research
into fair housing, and how we lift up all residents by creating
growth widely in our communities. Mr. Greene previously served
as Senior Advisor at HUD, a litigation associate at a major law
firm, and an adjunct professor at NYU's Wagner Graduate School
of Public Service.
As the head of Policy Development and Research, Mr. Greene
will lead HUD's research and provide data on housing and
community development issues that will help inform policy
decisions.
These nominees, all three of them, have strong, strong
records in housing policy and management. They will bring their
breadth of experience to HUD at a time when our country needs
it most. I have been the Ranking Member or Chair of this
Committee for 7 years now, and I have seen few, if any,
nominees as qualified as they.
That is what our hearing should focus on today. So I am
disappointed that the Ranking Member has instead decided to
attack these public servants and spread misinformation. These
nominees already responded to Senator Toomey--they did it on
Monday, and their own words made it clear they support the
police. Every Democrat in the Senate, and President Biden, all
supported the American Rescue Plan, which provided critical
funding to local police department, because of course we
support the police, and we wanted to make sure that police and
firefighters were not laid off during this pandemic. I am
disappointed the Ranking Member continues to think or act
otherwise.
I wish my Republican colleagues would put as much effort
into bringing down the cost of housing for families as they do
into this political theatre.
The Ohioans I talk to are exhausted--exhausted--by this
kind of division and distraction. And they are certainly not
worried about some retweet from a year ago. People want to know
what we are going to do--those in Government, and those in
Congress--to make their lives better. None of us should be so
brittle as to be so cowed by a tweet or a retweet.
Today's nominees have been selected to provide their
expertise at important agencies that are doing real work, work
that has the potential to bring down people's rents. We know a
quarter of renters, prepandemic in this country, paid more than
half their income and rent. One things happen in their life--
the car breaks down, their child gets sick--and their life is
turned upside down. We want people in Government to be on their
side.
Unlike many of the unqualified nominees in the previous
Administration that came before this Committee--and my
colleagues recognize how unqualified many of them were--today's
nominees have the experience and the preparation to make real
progress. I want to know today from these nominees what will
they do to make it easier for Pennsylvanians and Ohioans and
South Carolinians and Minnesotans, how they will make their
lives easier to afford a home. What will they do to root out
discrimination in housing? What will they do to find creative
solutions to the housing challenges families face in
communities large and small?
Let us do our jobs today, and let us focus on the results
Americans care about.
Thank you again to these nominees for your willingness to
serve. I look forward to your testimonies.
And, Members of the Committee, I would like to enter into
the record letters of support that the Committee has received
for the nominees: letters in support of Ms. Gordon, 115
supporters--that is one-one-five supporters--including MBA, the
Realtors, Housing Policy Council, the National Multifamily
Housing Council, and the National Fair Housing Alliance; and
more than 100 more; letters in support of Mr. Uejio from 40
organizations including the Japanese American Citizens League,
National Association of American Veterans, and the Leadership
Conference on Civil and Human Rights, and dozens more; and
letters in support of Mr. Greene from 31 organizations, the
Realtors, the Council of Large Public Housing Authorities, and
the National League of Cities, more than 25 more.
Without objection, I enter those letters into the record.
Without objection.
Chairman Brown. Ranking Member Toomey.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PATRICK J. TOOMEY
Senator Toomey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yeah, I want to
point out that under both Presidents Obama and Biden, I have
repeatedly supported many nominees who had the necessary
experience, the temperament, and the policy views, policy views
that I often disagreed with, but nevertheless acknowledged they
were within the mainstream of American political thought, and I
supported them.
Unfortunately, the nominees before us today, who have been
nominated for seniors positions at HUD, do not meet all of
these important criteria. In fact, I think there is ample
evidence that these Biden nominees have indicated a hostility
to the policy, they have subscribed to the theory that the
police are racists, and they have advocated for defunding the
police. My objection is not because these folks have put out
tweets or retweets. It is because of what those tweets, and in
other cases, their own writings in other mediums, tell us about
what they believe.
Let's consider Solomon Greene. He has repeatedly made
troubling statements denigrating the police and advocating for
the defunding of the police. Some of these statements he made
on Twitter, but others he made in an article that he himself
wrote just last June.
In that article, he alleged that, quote, ``overpolicing,''
end quote, endangers communities of color, and he advocated
for, and I quote, ``recapturing funding for the police,'' end
quote, which certainly sounds like a euphemism for defunding
the police, and reallocating that funding to other uses, such
as, quote, ``community arts and cultural institutions,'' end
quote, this at a time when crime rates in America's major
cities are on the rise. These views are so outside the
political mainstream, and I think they disqualify him from
holding a senior leadership position at HUD.
Equally concerning are Julia Gordon's past statements. Ms.
Gordon, among other things, retweeted a post that described
police officers as, and I quote, ``the people killing us,'' end
quote. She also suggested in a letter that she wrote, not a
tweet or a retweet but a letter that she wrote, that police
violence stems from, quote, ``flawed and biased systems that
require structural change,'' end quote. Additionally, Ms.
Gordon disparaged elected Republican officials. For example,
she attacked Senator Lindsey Graham as, quote, ``desperate,''
end quote, and ``Lying Lindsey,'' end quote.
In my view, these and other troubling statements are
clearly outside the political mainstream and disqualify her
from serving in a senior position at HUD.
Unfortunately, we do not know the full extent of Mr. Greene
and Ms. Gordon's public statements because they deleted some of
their previously public tweets before being nominated. I asked
them to try to recover their deleted tweets from Twitter. But
they have refused to comply with this reasonable request. And
it makes you wonder: What do they have to hide?
As the Senate evaluates nominees' fitness for senior
leadership positions, it is important the public has a full
picture of their policy views, their judgment, and their
character. A nominee's past public statements do matter, and a
nominee should not be able to avoid that scrutiny by merely
clicking a button marked Delete.
All of the Republicans on this Committee have written to
President Biden asking him to withdraw Mr. Greene and Ms.
Gordon's nominations because of their past anti-police
statements, and we are not alone in our concern. The National
Sheriffs' Association, which represents thousands of sheriffs
across the country, has written letters opposing both of these
nominees.
Mr. David Uejio also has a record that makes him
unqualified to serve in a senior position at HUD. As CFPB
Acting Director, he has publicly promoted the view that our
criminal justice system, which includes police officers, is
infected with, and I quote, ``latent, structural racism,'' end
quote.
Beyond that, what is most troubling about his record is his
lack of housing experience, especially on fair housing issues.
But he has been nominated to run HUD's Fair Housing Office,
which is responsible for protecting households from housing
discrimination. Yet nothing in his background suggests that he
has the experience or qualifications to enforce and administer
the Nation's fair housing laws.
He has served as CFPB Acting Director for just a few
months, but in that short time he has reportedly taken very
concerning personnel action, refused to provide information to
Congress, ignored stakeholders on important housing matters,
and returned the CFPB to the path of regulation by enforcement.
There have been serious allegations that, under Mr. Uejio's
leadership, the CFPB is taking unusual and possibly unlawful
actions to forcibly replace career civil servants with
loyalists. Yet he has refused to provide Congress with
documents that would address these allegations.
Ignoring stakeholder input, Mr. Uejio also decided to delay
the transition to CFPB's new Qualified Mortgage rule, despite
industry, consumer, and civil rights groups, and bipartisan
Senators from this very Committee urging him to reconsider. In
fact, despite stakeholder concerns, the CFPB stated it will
consider rewriting the rule.
In addition, Mr. Uejio rescinded CFPB policies that
provided regulatory clarity, clearing the path for the CFPB to
return to regulation by enforcement. Finally, he has shown
little regard for the CFPB's jurisdictional limits.
So I am troubled that the Biden administration has chosen
nominees who have made it clear, through their writings, their
tweets, and retweets, that they have been hostile to the
police, they subscribe to the theory that the police are
racists, and they support defunding the police. These
statements speak directly to their policy views and temperament
and therefore are extremely relevant to our consideration of
their nominations.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Ranking Member Toomey.
As you stand for the oath in a moment I am troubled that
this Committee did a first-of-its-kind hearing on structural
racism in housing, and a number of comments that you have all
tweeted about, and there have been some tweets pointing that
out. And, you know, you acknowledged our country's horrible
history of slavery and racial discrimination and Black codes
and Jim Crow and redlining, and those are relevant issues that
the understanding of those issues is something that the
previous Administration seemed little concerned about.
Understanding those issues will make you better nominees and
better public servants as you are confirmed.
So please stand and raise your right hands.
Do you swear or affirm that the testimony that are you
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Ms. Gordon. I do.
Mr. Uejio. I do.
Mr. Greene. I do.
Chairman Brown. Do you agree to appear and testify before
any duly constituted Committee of the U.S. Senate?
Ms. Gordon. I do.
Mr. Uejio. I do.
Mr. Greene. I do.
Chairman Brown. Thank you. Please be seated.
We welcome the three of you to the Committee. If you would
like to introduce family members or friends with you today at
the beginning of your testimony I invite you to do that.
Ms. Gordon, please begin your testimony. You are recognized
for 5 minutes. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF JULIA R. GORDON, OF MARYLAND, NOMINATED TO BE
ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT
Ms. Gordon. Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Toomey, and
distinguished Members of the Committee, I am deeply honored and
humbled to appear before you today as the nominee for Assistant
Secretary for Housing and Federal Housing Commissioner of the
Department of Housing and Urban Development. I want to begin by
thanking President Biden and Secretary Fudge for the confidence
and trust they have placed in me. I would also like to thank
the Committee for scheduling this hearing and considering my
nomination.
Before I talk more about my experience, I would also like
to recognize and thank my family who have joined me today. My
husband, Geoffrey Berman, is my most enthusiastic cheerleader,
and with more than 30 years at the Pentagon as a civilian
expert supporting our troops, he models what it means to be a
true public servant.
My daughter, Rochelle Berman, a rising high school senior,
gives me so much hope for the future with her love of learning
and her gift for connection with others.
I would also like to thank my mother, Rhona Gordon, who
cannot be here today in person. She instilled in me the value
of tikkun olam, which means working in partnership with God to
make the world a better place. That value has been the lodestar
of my life and career.
But my mom's life has not always been easy, and our
family's experience is a big part of why I believe so strongly
in the honorable mission of the Federal Housing Administration.
I grew up in what we now call single-family rental, and because
my parents were low income, they did not retire with pensions
or savings beyond their small Social Security checks.
Today, my mom lives in a subsidized apartment building for
seniors, but her rent still would exceed her monthly income if
not for additional housing assistance she receives from the
county. This lived experience undergirds my commitment to
promoting home ownership, which is the best path to family
stability and prosperity, and to ensuring that we support safe,
affordable, and habitable rental housing.
If confirmed, I look forward to working with President
Biden, Secretary Fudge, and Congress on several time-sensitive
priorities. First and foremost is recovering from COVID and
preventing foreclosures stemming from COVID-related economic
hardship. Hundreds of thousands of FHA homeowners are behind on
their mortgage payments, many with a CARES Act forbearance,
which has left them with considerable arrearages. Many of those
have seen a permanent reduction in income. While FHA has
already done a lot of hard work to develop the right tools to
help these homeowners begin to pay again, there is still a very
steep hill to climb to make sure no family loses their home as
a result of COVID.
My experience uniquely qualifies me to lead FHA's team at
this time. Back in 2007, I worked at the Center for Responsible
Lending, where my work centered first on mortgage policy and
later on foreclosure prevention. Subsequently, I moved to the
Federal Housing Finance Agency, where I managed the policy team
overseeing the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's to provide loss
mitigation for homeowners.
Currently, as the president of the National Community
Stabilization Trust, I focus on the connection between housing
and strong neighborhoods, working to prevent blight and create
more opportunities for home ownership. Through these
experiences, I have learned important lessons and developed
deep technical expertise and stakeholder relationships that I
can use to navigate the road ahead if I am confirmed.
Additionally, if confirmed, I would prioritize increasing
the supply of affordable housing for both rental and home
ownership. In fact, my work on supply issues has long predated
today's headlines. Over the past decade, the team I lead has
helped community-based developers put more than 27,000 blighted
properties back to work for families. We also provide capital
to small businesses seeking to create new home ownership, and
we advocate for supply oriented initiatives such as the
Neighborhood Homes Investment Act.
Those of you on this Committee deeply understand that safe,
healthy, and affordable housing is the necessary precondition
for families and communities to thrive and prosper. If I am
confirmed, I look forward to working with you to achieve that
goal for as many households as possible.
Thank you so much for the opportunity to testify before you
today. I look forward to your questions.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Ms. Gordon. Mr. Uejio, you are
recognized for 5 minutes.
TESTIMONY OF DAVID UEJIO, OF CALIFORNIA, NOMINATED TO BE
ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Uejio. Thank you Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Toomey,
and Members of the Committee, I am incredibly honored and
humbled to appear before you today as the nominee for Assistant
Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity at the
Department of Housing and Urban Development. I want to begin by
thanking President Biden for the trust and confidence he has
placed in me by nominating me for this position.
I would also like to thank my family and friends for their
endless support of me over many years of public service. I
especially want to thank my wife who has believed in me every
step of the way.
If confirmed, my role will be to enforce our Nation's fair
housing laws and to create strong, sustainable, and inclusive
communities for all Americans. I believe wholeheartedly in this
mission. FHEO's work is critical to millions of American
families, and I am deeply grateful and would be honored to lead
the office if I were confirmed.
I have dedicated my career to public service. As the
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau's Chief Strategy Officer,
I worked directly with Director Cordray, Acting Director
Mulvaney, and Director Kraninger to articulate their policy
vision and priorities and to protect America's consumers. I
have a proven track record of translating statute into
actionable plans, translating the Bureau's mission into
concrete outcomes for the American public. I have leveraged my
expertise in strategy, policy implementation, and operational
leadership to drive four Federal agencies to be more than the
sum of their parts, strengthening mission delivery everywhere I
have served.
As a career civil servant, I have served with honor and
integrity in carrying out the missions these agencies, always
seeking to provide the American public with the world-class
Government they deserve. These values have always served as my
North Star and would continue to do so if I were confirmed in
this role.
Over the last 6 months, I have had the opportunity to lead
America's consumer financial protection agency. As Acting
Director of the CFPB, I have centered the experience of
individual consumers, starting with the most vulnerable. I have
enforced America's consumer financial protection laws,
deploying the Bureau's enforcement, supervision, rulemaking,
and guidance tools to protect vulnerable consumers from illegal
unfair, deceptive, and abusive acts and practices. I have
overseen the Bureau's complaint handling function, responding
to over 500,000 complaints in 2020 from consumers seeking help.
Under my leadership, the Bureau has returned to publishing
regular analysis of the complaints we receive from those
consumers, including the first ever CFPB-published analysis of
demographic data and our May bulletin highlighting problems
encountered by mortgage borrowers. I have determined the
strategic direction and allocated additional resources toward
advancing racial and economic equity, including through the
Bureau's fair lending work under the Equal Credit Opportunity
Act, which includes supervision of regulated entities and major
fair lending enforcement matters.
Finally, at a time when our country has faced extraordinary
obstacles as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic and resulting
economic disruption, I have focused the Bureau's resources on
doing what we can to keep consumers housed.
As a third-generation immigrant from Japan, I have seen
firsthand the barriers to opportunity that can arise from
discrimination in housing. My grand-uncle was interned during
World War II. More recently, my father-in-law became severely
disabled and had difficulty finding access to accessible
housing. My life has shown me the crucial role housing plays in
providing access to opportunity for every American, and no
American's path to secure housing should be blocked by unlawful
discrimination.
I am committed to upholding and implementing our Nation's
housing laws, including the Fair Housing Act. Were I fortunate
enough to be confirmed, I would execute FHEO's mission under
Secretary Fudge with transparency, integrity, and impartiality,
and I would look forward to working with this Committee to
ensure equitable access to housing for all Americans. Most
importantly, I will continue to put the people we serve at the
heart of everything I do.
Thank you to this Committee for the privilege of appearing
before you today, and I look forward to answering your
questions.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Mr. Uejio. Mr. Greene, you are
recognized for 5 minutes.
TESTIMONY OF SOLOMON J. GREENE, OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA,
NOMINATED TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HOUSING AND URBAN
DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Greene. Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Toomey, and
distinguished Members of the Committee, I am deeply honored to
appear before you today as you consider my nomination. I want
to begin by thanking President Biden and Secretary Fudge for
the confidence and trust they placed in me by nominating me for
this important position. I would also like to thank my family
for their love and unwavering support.
I would also like to express my heartfelt gratitude to
several mentors who have been instrumental in my life,
including the Honorable Dorothy W. Nelson, Ingrid Gould Ellen,
Katherine O'Regan, Erika Poethig, and Sarah Rosen Wartell, who
is joining me today at the hearing. Thank you, Sarah.
Senators, HUD is currently navigating a rapidly evolving
housing crisis, and it is playing a central role in helping the
Nation build back better from the pandemic. We are at a moment
in our Nation's history when HUD's mission is more important
than ever.
Throughout my career I have sought to apply the best
available research, data, and evidence to advance HUD's
mission. My work on housing and community development policy
has been motivated by three deeply held commitments, which I
believe would make me well-suited to serve, if confirmed.
First, I have dedicated my career to helping all families
find and keep stable and affordable housing. This is something
I grew to appreciate from an early age. I was raised primarily
by a single mother who earned so little while working full-time
as a nurse that we received Medicaid and food stamps. By
economic necessity, my family often moved to where we could
afford the rent until my mother was able to scrimp and save
just enough for a downpayment on a house in a rural county in
New York State. That house and property, where my mother, my
brother, his wife and my baby nephew still live today, provided
the stability I needed to be able to focus on school and my
future. I truly believe it is why I am able to sit here before
you today as a nominee.
These early experiences also instilled in me the
recognition that a home is more than a roof over your head. It
is also a platform for health and well-being and a downpayment
on your children's future. Throughout my career, I have strived
to give every family the opportunities I was given by studying
the policies and programs that expand options for safe, stable,
and affordable housing.
Second, I believe that evidence-based housing and community
development policies can help ensure that every child has a
fair shot in life. The American Dream is that no matter who you
are or where you come from, if you work hard and give it your
all you will succeed. I have dedicated my career to ensuring
that where you come from does not determine who you can become
later in life.
I study the policies that shape communities and the
opportunities they offer their residents, and for years I have
worked with Federal, State, and local leaders to design and
test policies that revitalize communities, expand neighborhood
choices, and boost upward mobility.
Finally, and most importantly for the position to which I
have been nominated, I am passionate about using the best
available data and evidence to inform public policy decisions
at all levels of Government. I am first and foremost a
researcher with a strong and proven commitment to evidence-
based policymaking. I have demonstrated this through over two
decades of work on data-driven and community-informed housing
policy, from my work in local government to my work at HUD, as
a graduate student in law and urban planning, a legal research
fellow and adjunct professor at NYU, and mostly recently for
almost 7 years as a senior researcher at the Urban Institute.
In all of my work, I have applied independent, unbiased,
and objective research to help ensure that our public policies
are rooted in evidence, maximize the impact of limited
resources, and respond to the realities of people and
communities on the ground.
I am also passionate about bringing together researchers,
practitioners, and policymakers to identify evidence-based and
data-driven policy solutions to our Nation's housing and
community development challenges. I firmly believe that
rigorous research can provide diverse stakeholders with a
common frame through which to assess problems and a shared
foundation to find solutions.
Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today.
I look forward to your questions.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Mr. Greene.
Mr. Greene and Ms. Gordon, we will start with you. Let us
get the distraction and the nonsense out of the way once and
for all, quickly, so we can focus on policy and your
qualifications. Some have suggested you do not support law
enforcement personnel. You have read the letter. You have heard
the accusations. Have you ever personally advocated that the
police should be defunded? Ms. Gordon.
Ms. Gordon. Thank you so much for that question, Chairman
Brown. I have not advocated to defund the police. I support law
enforcement. I have family members in law enforcement. And as
previously stated, my husband has worked at the Pentagon for
more than three decades. Thank you.
Chairman Brown. Thank you. Mr. Greene.
Mr. Greene. Thank you, Chairman Brown. I do not support
defunding the police, as stated in the letter I shared with
this Committee. I do not and have not taken any positions on
policing and law enforcement. I am not an expert in those
areas, and I defer to experts when addressing those issues, as
well as leaders in the law enforcement community, and I hope to
listen and learn to their concerns. But I absolutely do not
support defunding the police.
Chairman Brown. Thank you for closing that chapter.
Ms. Gordon, in the months ahead, tens of thousands of FHA
borrowers will be exiting forbearance and will need to get back
on track to stay in their homes. You were on the front lines of
responding to the national financial crisis at the FHFA. What
have we learned since 2011 that can help us keep homeowners in
their homes in the ensuing years?
Ms. Gordon. Thank you for that excellent question. We have
learned a lot of important things. The first thing we learned
is to move swiftly when a crisis looms, and I want to thank
Congress for moving swiftly to pass the CARES Act. If we can
manage through the post-forbearance period with folks who got a
CARES Act forbearance, I think this will go down as one of the
great successes of Congress over the last several years.
Other things we have learned is that most families want to
pay their mortgage, and if we develop programs based on that
understanding and not putting too many obstacles in the way of
receiving help so that people have to prove through voluminous
documentation and, you know, affidavits that, you know, what
exactly their situation is, we have proven we can actually get
assistance out rapidly and effectively. And I do feel like that
is what has happened during this crisis so far.
Coming up, what we have also learned is that having the
right tools in place is only half the battle. The other half of
the battle is execution. The role that the mortgage servicers
have to play in keeping people in their homes cannot be
overstated, and these are relationships that I have built for
years. I understand mortgage servicing deeply, and I believe I
can help manage through this crisis so that no family loses
their home unnecessarily.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Ms. Gordon.
Mr. Uejio, FHEO staffing is down 12 percent over the past
decade. Both the Trump and Biden administrations have raised
concerns that staffing declines could undermine HUD's ability
to protect Americans from housing discrimination. You have
years of management experience, a special expertise in talent
acquisition, which the Department and the Office of Fair
Housing and Equal Opportunity desperately need.
Two questions. What will you do to ensure that FHEO has the
staff and resources it needs to comply with Fair Housing Act,
and what steps will you take to overcome these persistent
staffing challenges?
Mr. Uejio. Thank you, Chair Brown, for that question. As
you have recognized, I have spent my entire career helping
Federal agencies develop and execute their talent strategies,
and I would look to bring to bear best practices from that
experience in attracting talent to the noble mission of FHEO.
It is important, in my experience, to create both a calling
or a pursuit for those people to be inspired through the
mission--I think that is available amply in FHEO's case--and to
pair that with a strong employee experience that includes the
training, the resources, the leadership necessary to motivate
those individuals to best accomplish FHEO's mission.
I would like to thank Congress for allocating additional
resources to FHEO in the recent budget. I think those will be
well utilized to reinvigorate this institution to ensure it has
the human resources to engage in the noble work of seeking out
housing discrimination on behalf of all Americans.
Chairman Brown. Thank you. And last, quickly, Mr. Greene,
we are facing a shortage of homes, obviously, that families can
afford across the country, renters and home buyers. How can
HUD's Office of Policy Development and Research help us better
understand the reasons behind this shortage and find solutions
to bring down the cost of rent and the cost of a mortgage?
Mr. Greene. Yeah. Thank you, Chairman Brown. I think HUD's
Office of Policy Development and Research has a strong
foundation to build upon. It already provides foundational
research and data and supports evidence-based policymaking
across the agency, and has extraordinarily talented career
staff.
In order to address both the current housing instability
challenges and the ongoing supply issues, I would want to build
upon those strengths in two ways: one, broaden stakeholder
engagement to really understand what are some of the challenges
communities are facing on the ground, and two, to find ways to
do more timely and actionable research that responds to the
evolving needs in the wake of the pandemic. Thank you for the
question.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Mr. Green. Senator Toomey is
recognized.
Senator Toomey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. According to a
Gallup poll taken during last summer's protests and riots, 67
percent of Americans want police to spend the same amount of
time in their communities as they do now. Eighty-one percent of
African Americans want police to spend the same amount or more
time in their communities. Since then, violent crime rates are
higher today than they were then. I think it is clear that
Americans of all races overwhelmingly want the police in their
communities to protect them.
But, Mr. Greene, based on some of your public statements,
it is pretty clear you do not share that view, and given the
hostility to the police expressed in some of those statement,
my concern is that Americans, including those living in public
housing, could reasonable doubt whether you will advocate for
policies at HUD that will keep them safe.
So, for instance, in an article that you wrote for the
Urban Institute in June of 2020, you advocated for, and I
quote, ``recapturing funding from the police,'' end quote, and
then you went on to describe other purposes to which it could
be put, such as community arts and cultural institutions.
``Recapturing funding from the police'' sure sounds like
defunding the police to me. You went on in that same article to
argue that, and I quote, ``Too many families of color live in
neighborhoods endangered by overpolicing,'' end quote.
So is it still your view that the police endanger people of
color in the communities that they protect?
Mr. Greene. Thank you for the question, Ranking Member
Toomey, and for the opportunity to elevate some of my past
research. I want to emphasize that that blog post--in that blog
post we were sharing the findings of evidence-based strategies
to improve neighborhoods through investments and to expand
upward mobility by addressing disparities in access to
neighborhoods. We did not advocate for defunding the police.
Senator Toomey. OK. Well, so ordinary English language
certainly suggests that you did.
There is a tweet that you put out where it appears that you
cut-and-pasted from another article, and what you cut-and-
pasted was, and I am quoting now, ``Here's another idea.
Imagine if the money used to pay the salaries of police
officers, who endlessly patrol public housing buildings and
harass residents, can be used to fund plans that residents
designed to keep themselves safe. No more money for the
police.'' That is what you tweeted.
But then you replied to your own tweet, in which you said,
``Also: ``@nfg--org and @funders4justice''--these are two
notorious anti-police organizations--``had it right all
along!'' So it is really, really hard to suggest that somehow
you have no animosity toward law enforcement.
Ms. Gordon, some of your statements and tweets suggest a
similar concern for me. In one case, you retweeted a post,
which I think we have a picture of the tweet, and in it the
police officers are described as, and I quote, ``the people
killing us.'' Is that your view that that is a fair way to
describe law enforcement, the people killing us?
Ms. Gordon. That is not my view, and I regret retweeting
that.
Senator Toomey. But you did, and other tweets that you have
sent out have thematically been very similar. So it causes us
to wonder about what your views are regarding law enforcement.
Mr. Uejio, you confirmed to my staff, I believe, that the
CFPB regularly updates Mr. Chopra on what is happening at the
CFPB. Is that correct?
Mr. Uejio. Thank you for the question. Ranking Member, that
is correct.
Senator Toomey. OK. Who, at the CFPB, does that updating?
Mr. Uejio. At the CFPB, well, at the CFPB that is generally
done by the staff, career staff, who provide that information
to the nominee. I should clarify, though, that I am not
appearing before the Committee in my role as Acting Director.
Senator Toomey. That is fine. But I am still interested in
knowing what kinds of CFPB activities are Mr. Chopra updated
on?
Mr. Uejio. In that matter we consulted very early on, when
he was nominated, with our general counsel, for the appropriate
guidelines for engaging with nominees. That includes, you know,
news of the day. But we are totally in compliance with the
guidance from our general counsel.
Senator Toomey. Has he been updated on any personnel
matters?
Mr. Uejio. No, sir.
Senator Toomey. OK. And presumably he has opinions and
thoughts about the agency that he is slated to run. Has he
provided feedback on policy matters there?
Mr. Uejio. Thank you for the question. It is the
opportunity to clarify. All of the decisions that I have made
as Acting Director of the CFPB have been mine, and they have
not been Mr. Chopra's.
Senator Toomey. I did not ask you that. I asked whether he
has provided his input on policy matters.
Mr. Uejio. No, sir.
Senator Toomey. OK. Last point, and this is just for the
record, I just want to stress, I sent you a letter requesting
information relating to allegations about career civil servants
being removed from the CFPB in order to be replaced with
political loyalists. You responded in writing but you did not
provide any of the records that we requested. You did not even
provide the equivalent of what someone would get if they made a
FOIA request, and that could be redacted to hide any personally
identifiable or otherwise exempted information. This is not
acceptable, and it gives me serious concern about how
responsive you will be to congressional requests in the future.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Brown. Senator Reed is recognized for 5 minutes,
from Rhode Island.
Senator Reed. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Ms.
Gordon, I note that you have been strongly endorsed by the Fair
Housing Alliance and the National Association of Realtors, who
are not often on the same frequency, if you will. So that
suggests that there is a broad coalition of stakeholders that
believe that you are well prepared and competent for this job,
and that is encouraging.
We had a chance to chat. We are in the midst, as everyone
recognizes, of potential onslaught of foreclosures. What can
the FHA do proactively to prevent these foreclosures?
Ms. Gordon. There are really two things that are critical
for preventing foreclosures. One is to have the right tools, or
some people at FHA call the products, to offer to homeowners
because they have built up arrearages--you know, mortgage
payments they have not paid--during the CARES Act forbearance.
So you need particular products that allow then either to defer
that payment until the end of that loan or to spread that
payment out across the term of their loan.
FHA has now put in some very good tools for them to do
that. Now what has to happen is we have to make sure we give
really clear direction to the mortgage servicers and really
support them as they work to make individual contact with these
borrowers.
One thing FHA did that I want to commend them for is they
are now, much like the GSEs do, proactively sending out some
offers to borrowers, you know, to come back into performance on
their mortgage. So I look forward to, if I am confirmed, to
helping manage through what is a very difficult process but
where I really think we can be successful this time around.
Senator Reed. Thank you very much.
Mr. Uejio, the Administration has announced that it will
enforce the Fair Housing Act to include individuals based on
sexual orientation and gender identity, and this is a new task,
so can you give us an idea of how you will address this type of
discrimination?
Mr. Uejio. Sure. Thank you for the question, Senator. I
have been very pleased to see the Administration's focus, as
well as the Secretary's, on this important issue. With the
inclusion of sexual orientation and gender identity, in light
of the Supreme Court's Bostock ruling, I would look, if
confirmed in the role, to bring to bear the collective tools of
FHEO, starting with complaints from the public who are affected
by these instances of potential discrimination, in seeking out
and ensuring those communities are maximally protected under
the Fair Housing Act.
Senator Reed. Thank you very much. And, Mr. Greene, I would
also note that you have been endorsed by the Council of Large
Public Housing Authorities, which members manage 40 percent of
public housing in the United States, and I have long worked on
this Committee for opportunities for public housing.
What strategy do you have to fashion a housing policy that
will better serve the most vulnerable Americans, and those are
typically in public housing or trying to get into public
housing or some type of subsidized housing?
Mr. Greene. Thank you, Senator. I have had the pleasure of
working with the Council for several years, and most recently
worked with them to launch a housing crisis research
collaborative dedicated to bringing some of the most rigorous
and timely research to bear, to be able to address exactly
those questions. And I think that the specific strategies that
I would want to support, if I was confirmed to lead the Office
of Policy Development and Research, would be to focus research
on the lived experiences of people who face the greatest
barriers to housing, to make better use of the program data
that HUD already has available, to understand what the
challenges are for residents who live in public and assisted
housing. And as I said at the outset, one of my priorities
would be to engage a broader set of stakeholders to really get
a full picture of what the research knowledge gaps are and how
the office could help fill them.
Senator Reed. Well, thank you very much. I think one area
is self-sufficiency programs. It is one thing to provide
shelter, but without support--educational, financial, training,
access to day care so people can go to work--you know, it is a
cycle in and out of public housing. So hopefully you can focus
on those issues too.
Thank you very much.
Chairman Brown. Senator Tillis from North Carolina is
recognized.
Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for
being here.
Ms. Gordon, I am going to have you respond to something
after I go through some of the background. In 2014, you
retweeted someone who wrote, ``Trying to win Southern seats is
not worth the ideological costs for Democrats.'' It is a Daily
Beast article that was attached to the retweet, which lambasted
the South as a backwards place, filled with backwards people
that Democrats should shun. I think the passage even included
``practically the whole region, the South, has rejected nearly
everything that is good about this country and has become just
one big nuclear waste site of choleric and extremely racialized
resentment.''
North Carolina was specifically listed as a State that
Democrats should consider caring about, but only under the
right circumstances when necessary for the electoral college.
Ms. Gordon, what is good about this country that Southern
States have rejected?
Ms. Gordon. Thank you so much, Senator, for giving me the
opportunity to talk about this tweet. I would like to start by
saying that when I was in high school my family moved to North
Carolina in search of work there, and I loved living in North
Carolina and I still count many, many people in North Carolina
as my friends.
I regret this retweet, which, to be frank, is retweeted
just because that person was a friend of mine. I thoughtlessly
retweeted it, and I regret it.
Senator Tillis. Ms. Gordon, what is the ideological cost
for Democrats who seek office? If you just go back and see what
the article was focused on, what is the ideological cost for
Democrats who seek office in Southern States?
Ms. Gordon. Like I said, I just retweeted that in a hurry.
I regret it. I do not have any view on the content of the
article.
Senator Tillis. Thank you, Ms. Gordon.
Mr. Greene, last summer the city of Portland experienced a
number of violent riots. The Edith Green-Wendell Wyatt Federal
Building, which houses 40 HUD employees, was the target of
repeated attacks, according to DHS. Some officers suffered
permanent blindness. Rioters attacked with mortar-style
fireworks and Molotov cocktails. As a result, the building was
closed most of the summer.
Last May, you retweeted, ``Violent protests are not the
story. Police violence is.'' And last July you retweeted, ``HUD
Secretary Donovan, who characterized the riots as an expression
of free speech.''
Why did you tweet and retweet those statements?
Mr. Greene. Thank you, Senator. I fully support the law
enforcement community and condemn any violence against people
or property damage. I want to emphasize, again, put the
context, the necessary context to both of those tweets. One
tweet was referencing protests. It was simply the title that
accompanied a link to an article from Vox. Those were not my
words.
The second tweet, as you mentioned, was a retweet of
Secretary Donovan. It was an exchange between Secretary Donovan
and Secretary Carson. I work in the housing field. Two
Secretaries having a discussion on Twitter is noteworthy. I
never, in any of my tweets, anticipated that retweets or
sharing articles would be considered endorsements, and I do not
endorse the ideas in the publications or in the tweets.
Senator Tillis. Well, I actually think that when you
retweet something you are quoting something as an expression of
your own ideas, so you may want to be more thoughtful in the
future, if that is not your intent.
According to the DHS, on May 30, 2020, rioters repeated the
same building. On June 11, 2020, rioters dismantled a section
of the fence that protects the Federal Building. On June 30,
2020, rioters ripped down the plywood covering the windows at
this Federal facility before breaking the windows. On July 12,
rioters fired rockets at the facility, in addition to graffiti-
ing it. On July 14, 2020, rioters assaulted Federal law
enforcement officers with cans and various other objects while
they attempted to breach the facility. Additionally, at the
same facility, rioters attempted to tamper with the water feed
into the building, even being caught with chemicals by the
police.
Do you consider any of this a peaceful protest or an
expression of free speech.
Mr. Greene. Thank you, Senator. I just want to also
appreciate your suggestion to be more thoughtful in the future.
I do want to recognize that any past tweets were in a personal
capacity. If I am fortunate enough to be confirmed by this
Committee I would have a limited social media presence, and
would be sharing----
Senator Tillis. Well, Mr. Greene----
Mr. Greene. ----others' ideas.
Senator Tillis. ----Mr. Greene, my time is out, but I
think--I just got out of a Judiciary Committee where I voted
for five out of six judicial nominations. Some of them what I
considered to be some problematic comments in their background,
but I still felt like they were qualified to be confirmed to
the bench in DOJ positions.
But it just seems to me that you have to own--these are not
youthful indiscretions. These are things that happened
contemporaneously, and they provide me serious concern with the
position that you are being nominated for.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Tillis. Senator Menendez
from New Jersey is recognized for 5 minutes.
Senator Menendez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, as
I have noted before, if our colleagues believe that tweets on
policy differences or politics are disqualifying for a nominee
that I would note, as the Ranking Member of the Senate Foreign
Relations Committee at the time, I saw a number of nominees put
forward by the last Administration who clearly did not meet
that standard. Let me give you some examples.
President Trump's confirmed, the Senate-confirmed
Ambassador to Slovenia, shared an article entitled ``The
Clinton body count: Five mysterious deaths in the last 6
weeks,'' resurrecting the vicious lie conspiracy theory that
President Clinton and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had
systemically murdered political opponents and associates.
Let me talk about the Trump nominee confirmed--and this is
not one Republican vote against--the Ambassador to Kenya, who
tweeted on Election night 2016, ``Hillary for prison. No,
really.''
Let me talk about the Trump nominee who tweeted about
Members of this Committee, some of which I will not repeat
because they did not deserve it. But he called one member of
the Senate, on the Republican side, that Satan had a hold on
him and that he would go to hell. He talked about another
Republican member's wife, and had rather horrible things to
say.
And so I can tell you that the list is replete of those
individuals that Republican Senators voted, in unanimity for.
Now these are some examples, and they are examples far
beyond anything that these nominees have said before us, and I
do not recall our colleagues sending letter after letter to the
State Department or the Administration criticizing the last
Administration's nominees.
In fact, the former President himself habitually--
habitually--retweeted things. In fact, he retweeted a video of
a violent incident on a New York City subway platform. The
video shows a Black man pushing a White woman into a train car
and it is captioned ``Black Lives Matter. Antifa the problem?''
It was over a year old and it had nothing to do with either
about Black Lives Matter or Antifa. In fact, it showed the
action of a mentally ill man with no known ties to either
group. But that went on like wildfire. The former President had
no problem doing that. So I do not recall any indignation
during that whole period of time.
These nominees before us today, I may not agree with all of
their tweets, but they are experienced, competent, and
dedicated, as evidenced by hundreds of individuals and
organizations that have endorsed them. And I will note for the
Committee that the former FHA Commissioner, Brian Montgomery,
who served under both Presidents Bush and Trump, issued a
statement in support of Ms. Gordon's nomination, calling her
``immensely qualified.''
So despite some of the rhetoric we are hearing today, let
there be no doubt that these nominees are up to the job they
have been nominated for, and with that, what little time I have
left, let me--I will have to submit a series of questions for
the record, that I hope you will answer substantively--Mr.
Greene, in a 2020 paper you wrote, quote, ``Disparities in
COVID-19's effects are driving by structural barriers and
neighborhood-level conditions, including overcrowded and
substandard housing, limited access to employment
opportunities, and poor transportation options,'' close quote.
So is it safe to say that there is a connection between
affordable housing, good public transportation, and employment
opportunities?
Mr. Greene. Thank you, Senator. I think there is ample
research demonstrating that.
Senator Menendez. And should Congress and HUD need to take
transportation access into account when designing affordable
housing policy?
Mr. Greene. Thank you, Senator. I am a strong believer in
interagency collaboration. The challenges that communities face
on the ground are complex and interrelated. The more that we,
at the Federal level, can work across agencies to align
housing, education, transportation policy to support
communities in achieving their goals, I think the better. If I
was fortunate enough to be confirmed I would welcome the
opportunity to----
Senator Menendez. Well, upon your confirmation I want you
to look at the Livable Communities Act that I, and a series of
my colleagues, have introduced. It creates a grant program to
incentivize the coordinated development of affordable housing
and transit.
And one final question. Ms. Gordon, unless the last
Administration HUD relocated key multifamily housing staff from
its office in Newark to the New York regional office. This,
combined with the fact that HUD has never had a Region 2
administrator from New Jersey, going back at least 25 years,
troubles me, because it suggests HUD is not prioritizing New
Jersey's housing needs. And as a former mayor I can tell you,
that presents a significant challenge.
If you are confirmed, will you ensure that the Newark
office has the staff it needs and that New Jersey remains a
priority at HUD?
Ms. Gordon. Thank you, Senator, for that question.
Absolutely. If confirmed, I will make sure that every State has
the personnel it needs, but especially New Jersey, because my
husband is from New Jersey, and we are----
Senator Menendez. Well, then the case is closed. Thank you
very much. I will introduce the rest of my questions for the
record, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Menendez. I would remind
my colleagues that the letter from Mr. Montgomery that Senator
Menendez mentioned was sent after the Toomey letter was
released.
Senator Scott is recognized, from South Carolina.
Senator Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
holding this very important hearing. I will say that my
colleagues to the left have had a number of opportunities to
ask questions of nominees before this Committee that had
nothing to do with the issues of this Committee so many times
that I cannot even remember the number of times I have had to
sit through Banking hearing, hour after hour, listening to
folks go on about things that have nothing to do with this
Committee. I would say that the comments that have been made by
these noms, or at least a couple of them, tweeting about the
police, have everything to do with housing.
The fact of the matter is, housing is incredibly important,
but safety in the place where you live is number one. And so
when you have folks talking about defunding the police, you are
actually making the housing issue, and the desire for home
ownership and for a good, safe place to live, issue number one.
I cannot imagine something more important than safety in the
place where you live. And having lived in some of the poorest
parts of South Carolina, I can tell you firsthand that the one
thing no one living in the communities where I grew up is
asking for defunding the police. Not a single person. Not one.
I will say this, that you look at the most recent polls and
surveys done, more than 80 percent of the African Americans--I
think it is 81 percent--has said very clearly they want the
same level of policing, or more policing, and that is
consistent throughout every demographic in this country.
And so while we can make this into a political issue, this
is an issue that impacts real people, in real places, that feel
insecure and unsure about where they live, and they want the
same dignity and respect where they live. And so for us to take
this as a simple political issue is, frankly, inconsistent with
the reality faced by so many people, who simply want to come
home to a safe place. And while it is really easy to have a
conversation, not living in those communities, about people in
those communities, I think it is wrong. I think it is wrong,
and not only do I think it is wrong, you can look at what is
happening all across the country, and those folks who wanted to
defund the police are now trying to find a way to re-fund the
police.
You think about Minneapolis, with a 90 percent increase in
violent crime and homicides. You think about the fact that they
are now saying, ``Wait a second. Cutting the police may have
been a really bad idea.'' In Baltimore there are almost 400
officers in a shortage. They have 392 positions to be filled,
more than a dozen detective positions vacant. What is happening
in Baltimore? The crime is up. And what is the City Council
saying? They are saying, ``Well, last year we cut it by $22
million. This year let's increase it by $28 million.'' Why?
Because they understand that putting poor people in a place
without security is immoral. It is wrong.
And so for us to have this conversation, as if it is just a
conversation, because we are sitting in one of the safest
places in the United States, is ridiculous, in my opinion. We
should take serious our words. We can actually lead people to
more violent activities, because when leaders say something,
people listen. And if you want to lead, take that
responsibility seriously, very serious.
Think about New York City just elected a new person, who
said, ``You are not defunding my police. We are going to
actually add more policing.'' Residents of New York City,
Oakland, Baltimore, Minneapolis, Los Angeles all are trying to
reinstate millions, tens of millions of dollars in policing.
And so when I hear Mr. Greene tweet ``No more money for
police,'' I think about the kid I was, living in the
neighborhoods that I lived in, where the police presence was
necessary. It was essential. And so I do not think about this
from the politics of left and right. I think about this as
average American people, who are vulnerable, who need help, who
have worked hard, living paycheck to paycheck, and they want
more policing.
So, Mr. Greene, would you like a chance to restate your
position on defunding the police, or give me better context for
it, because I have got to say, it is an issue.
Mr. Greene. Senator Scott, I could not agree with you more,
and I share your commitment to the health and safety of all
residents, residents in assisted housing, residents in the
market. And I have worked in so many of the cities that you
have mentioned to support improvements to communities,
reinvestment in communities, in ways that make them safer.
I want to reemphasize and make it abundantly clear, the
words that you said, ``No more money for the police,'' were
populated on my tweet when I shared an idea and I shared
others' viewpoints. I regret if that is interpreted as my
opinion, and when I tweeted it at the time I do not think it
would have been interpreted that way.
I mean, I also do not think about this as the politics of
left and right. As I said, one of my priorities, actually, my
number one priority, if I was fortunate enough to be confirmed,
would be to harness the incredible talent at the Office of
Policy Development and Research to better understand the needs
and priorities of people in communities on the ground.
So thank you so much for your commitment. It is a
commitment I share.
Senator Scott. Mr. Chairman, I know I am out of time. I am
just going to finish with this statement right here. I will
tell you that I will debate anybody on funding the people at a
proper level any day, anywhere, at any time, period.
I will say this as well. The reality of this is simply as I
work through police reform and I think about the issues and the
comments made by so many people who have the advantage of
sitting comfortably in a place, talking to others through their
accounts, I think about those people who are literally,
desperately looking for leadership, because for them it is
about life and death. It is not about politics. It is about
life and death. And I take that seriously, because I have been
in those positions.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Scott. Senator Tester
from Montana is recognized for 5 minutes.
Senator Tester. Yeah, thank you, Chairman Brown, and I want
to welcome our witnesses, and I want to thank you for your
willingness to serve. COVID-19 has only underscored the
importance of addressing our housing challenges and the
important work that you are nominated to do at HUD.
Similarly, over the last year-and-a-half, facing this
health and economic crisis has highlighted the work and
sacrifices Montana and our Nation's law enforcement officers,
first responders, and their families make every day to keep us
safe. And this year, in particular, since January 6th, which we
might think this is the safest place in the world but I am
still shaken to the core by what has happened there, and the
lack of any sort of investigation to find out what has happened
so this will not happen again, we have seen up close what the
risks and sacrifices can mean for women and men who protect us
right here in the Capitol every day as we hold hearings like
this one, and we go to votes.
It is my colleagues' and my duty to ensure that we are
meeting the first responders' needs during changing and
challenging times, whether that is by making sure that our cops
and firefighters can stay on the beat by allowing towns and
counties to recruit pandemic revenue losses, as we passed in
the American Rescue Plan, or by cutting red tape for the
families of fallen officers to access their earned benefits.
Our police and first responders need the Government to defend
them, not by just words but providing them with the tools and
the money to do tough jobs safely and efficiently.
Now housing is also a critical issue, in my home State and
across the country, and you all are nominated for positions at
the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and I want to
have time to ask you about that. But first, I want to ask you a
very simple question, and you were sworn, under oath, before
this Committee started. So quickly, just a yes or no, do you
support Defund the Police?
Mr. Greene. No, I do not, Senator.
Mr. Uejio. No, I do not, Senator.
Ms. Gordon. No, I do not.
Senator Tester. So if, in fact, these folks are lying, they
are perjuring themselves, then I would suggest take appropriate
action. Otherwise, take them at their word, because that is
what they said, under oath, right now, today, in this Committee
meeting.
So look, we have got challenges of housing around Montana
for a long time. It has gotten worse during the pandemic. There
are areas of the State where there is not enough affordable
housing, but there are also places without housing available at
any price point.
I know there is no silver bullet to fix this, but I am
curious about what each of you see as your priorities, if
confirmed, to start addressing the housing challenges that we
are seeing all across this country. Now I am talking not only
availability but I am talking affordability.
You can go first, Ms. Gordon.
Ms. Gordon. Thank you, Senator, for that excellent
question, and thank you for the work we have done in the past
on housing finance reform issues. In Montana, you are facing
these twin issues when it comes to supply--we do need more
availability. There are many ways we can look at that. One
thing I would like to look at, if I were confirmed, is to look
at how manufactured housing can play more of a role in the
solution toolbox.
But I will also talk about areas, you know, such as, say,
Bozeman, Montana, where you have an influx of a lot of people
coming in and buying homes with cash, and I think it is driving
up prices. So it is important not just to push on supply but
really to make sure that typical families that want to buy with
financing are able to do that, and that would be a priority of
mine, if I were confirmed to FHA.
Senator Tester. Mr. Uejio.
Mr. Uejio. Thank you for the question, Senator. If I were
fortunate enough to be confirmed at FHEO, it would be my role
to ensure all consumers are protected from discrimination in
housing. Now I have had conversations with folks in rural
communities, with folks from Tribal nations, and I am aware
that those protections are not always well known, even by folks
on the ground. And it would be my top priority at FHEO to
really strengthen the infrastructure of the office and ensure
people knew that they could file complaints of discrimination
with it, and with our fair housing partners, to address it
wherever it exists.
Senator Tester. Mr. Greene.
Mr. Greene. Thank you so much for the question, Senator,
and I appreciate the extraordinary housing needs in your State
and across the country. And I am going to give what may sound
like a remarkably researcher response, but it is data. Data is
so essential to meeting both the supply and demand side
challenges. I have written extensively about gaps in data
knowledge, about the effect of local land use and other
regulations that can strain supply. We need better data to be
able to come up with better policy solutions.
My colleagues at the Urban Institute have written
extensively about the lack of data on housing needs in rural
communities, particularly. We need better data in order to
address those needs.
And on manufactured housing, such an essential part of our
affordable housing stock, particularly in rural communities. We
need better data about what the barriers are to providing more
of it, and what are the challenges in the existing stock.
But I am not content to leave it with data. If I was
confirmed, I would want to apply the best available data,
research, and evidence to problem-solving, and work very
closely with you and the Committee on that.
Senator Tester. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Tester. Senator Warren
is recognized for 5 minutes.
Senator Warren. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
congratulations to each of you for your nominations. I know you
have each received well-deserved support from leaders all
around this country.
Mr. Uejio, you have been endorsed by leading Asian
American, Native Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander organizations,
by dozens of civil rights, community, consumer, and small
business organizations. I know that you will bring extensive
management experience to this role and are well prepared to
help rebuild the Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity
to ensure that the office can meet its critical mission. I
enthusiastically support your nomination and I look forward to
your swift confirmation.
Now all of you here today are nominated to deal with
housing issues, so I want to talk a little bit about housing.
In fact, I want to take us back to the 2008 financial crash.
Between 2007 and 2010, there were an estimated 3.8 million
foreclosures. The recession hit Black families the hardest,
wiping out nearly all of the growth in Black home ownership
since the Fair Housing Act back in the 1960s. Black and Latino
families' wealth plummeted.
The crash devastated families, but not everyone got hurt.
Private equity firms had a giant payday. Between 2011 and 2017,
large corporate investors purchased more than 200,000 homes,
turning homes that had once been owned by families into poorly
managed rental properties, and turning private equity firms
into predatory landlords.
This massive transfer of wealth from families to
corporations got a helping hand from the Federal Government.
The Federal Housing Administration, FHA, started bundling
distressed mortgages from different parts of the country and
putting them up for auction.
Ms. Gordon, say a family renting a home down the street
from a foreclosed FHA property wanted to buy that property and
become a homeowner. Would they have been able to do so through
the program that the FHA set up to sell pools of distressed
mortgages?
Ms. Gordon. Thank you, Senator, for that question, and the
answer is no, they would not. That is not how these homes were
sold. There were several different kinds of bulk sales that
happened after the crisis, both by FHA and by Fannie Mae and
Freddie Mac, bulk sales of properties that had already been
foreclosed on, which also were sold to investors, and bulk
sales of what we called non-performing loans, which, you know,
are held by somebody else, managed by somebody else, and in
many cases, as you mentioned, never returned to owner occupancy
because they are then used for rental because it is brings more
a cash-flow for the investor.
Senator Warren. So here we have these homes, that had been
owned by families, the family gets into trouble and another
family, under FHA policies, was not able to buy the loan, but
private equity could.
You know, this was a policy that was great for the
Blackstones of the world, great for giant investors, but it
shut out families, and it shut out community organizations. It
did not have to turn out that way. The FHA wrote the rules.
So let me ask, Ms. Gordon, if confirmed, you would be in
charge of those rules. Why is it important for FHA to
prioritize making distressed homes available for homeowners to
purchase?
Mr. Greene. The answer is because we have a shortage of
homes right now for people who want to buy them, which is
driving up prices and making them even less affordable. I will
note that HUD has a program called Good Neighbor Next Door, and
I know it might seem surprising that I am about to bring up the
police again, but this is actually a program that provides
police and other first responders and teachers with discounted
homes. And actually that program has languished because of some
of the changes that have been made in how HUD disposes of
homes.
Senator Warren. Good. Good. So I want to see us move in
this direction, if I can. I just want to focus on one program
for a moment, Mr. Chair, FHA's Claims Without Conveyance of
Title program. About half of all distressed properties are
being sold through it, and right now it is doing the opposite
of prioritizing owner occupants. You know, the program feels
like the financial crisis response all over again. Properties
are sold on private auction websites that are not accessible to
the average family, sometimes with cash-only listings. And the
program bypasses existing protections that give homeowners and
nonprofits a first-look period for homes.
So this one is simple--just a yes or no here, Ms. Gordon--
if confirmed, do you commit to evaluating the Claims Without
Conveyance of Title program and considering change that
facilitate sales to homeowners rather than to private equity?
Ms. Gordon. Yes, I do.
Senator Warren. Good. I appreciate this. Ms. Gordon, you
have been a trusted housing policy leader, and you will bring
significant expertise and experience to this role. I look
forward to the opportunity to work together to help families
and to stabilize neighborhoods, and look forward to your speedy
confirmation.
I did not have time for questions here for everyone, but
based on our conversations, and based on your extraordinary
public service, I strongly support all of your nominations and
look forward to our making that happen quickly.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Warren. Senator Van
Hollen of Maryland is recognized for 5 minutes.
Senator Van Hollen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and
congratulations to all of you on your nominations. Ms. Gordon,
very proud to have you as a Marylander, and I know that the
Chairman mentioned earlier the 115 organizations that are
supporting your nominations, and I know many others are as
well, in our State. And those, of course, include the National
Housing Conference, the Mortgage Bankers Association,
Enterprise Partners, and many others. So thank you for your
deep experience, and all of you bring that experience.
In fact, I am going to start with you, Mr. Greene, given
your experience in good research at the Urban Institute. I
fully agree with the efforts to increase the supply of
affordable housing, by using subsidies to build out more homes
for more people. But I also think it is important we do not
forget the demand side as we work through these challenges.
As you know, millions of low-income households struggle to
pay rent and need a housing voucher or other rental assistance
to secure stable housing and make ends meet and give their
children a better chance of success. The majority of people in
these households are children, seniors, or people with
disabilities, more than 60 percent are people with color, and
close to three-fourths of these households have extremely low
incomes, below the poverty line, or 30 percent of the local
median income.
So as we work to build out the supply of affordable
housing, would you agree that it is also important that we
expand the number of affordable housing vouchers that we
provide?
Mr. Greene. Thank you so much for the question, Senator,
and fortunately my research focuses not just on addressing
supply but also demand side issues, and so I am grateful to be
joined this morning by a colleague, Martha Galvez, who I have
written about some of the challenges facing housing choice
voucher holders and how we might overcome them using case
studies and new data we have created.
So absolutely, and I have written, as well, about the need
to balance and address both demand and supply issues. And I
think, to your question of expanding the housing choice voucher
program, we do know that essentially the voucher program, like
other forms of Federal assistance, is essentially a lottery.
The vast majority of people today who qualify for Federal
assistance, rental assistance, including vouchers, simply do
not receive it.
So if I was fortunate enough to be confirmed, I would want
to take a closer look at what are some of the ways that we can
fill that enormous gap, help more people achieve stable and
affordable housing, and I do think the housing choice voucher
program is an absolutely essential tool to do that.
Senator Van Hollen. I appreciate your testimony, and, you
know, I know the Chairman and Ranking Member have heard me say
this before, but Senator Young and I have introduced
legislation, the Family Stability and Opportunity Vouchers Act,
which would make 500,000 housing mobility vouchers available
over the next 5 years, that will allow families with mostly
young kids to move to areas of opportunity. And I think the
research demonstrates clearly that this has helped with
families out of poverty and given the next generation much
greater opportunities.
Ms. Gordon, I see in your testimony you have focused your
remarks on the supply side, which, as I said, I think is a very
important piece to it. But as you take this new position, will
you agree that we also need to expand our efforts on the demand
side by making sure that very low-income people have access to
a place to call home? Because I think most of the evidence
shows that even if we are successful, as I think we will be, at
expanding the supply of affordable housing for very low-income
people, that still may be out of reach. So what do you think
about the demand side as well?
Ms. Gordon. Well, thank you for that question, and I should
note it is an honor and a pleasure to be your constituent.
Absolutely, we have to work on both sides at the same time. The
demand side, of course, for rental, the rents are too high, and
that is going to require production, but it is also going to
require creativity in how we support people in rental.
And when it comes to home ownership, I do believe that low-
income people can achieve home ownership. In fact, I just
launched a new project in Baltimore where we are working on
both sides of this at the same time. We are providing capital
to local, small, minority developers who are developing home,
and because they are going to get a subsidy to develop it is
going to help keep the price down. And then those home are
reserved for low- and moderate-income homeowners.
So I think there is a lot we can do on both sides, and I
really appreciate your interest in that issue.
Senator Van Hollen. Thank you.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Van Hollen. Senator
Smith is recognized for 5 minutes, from Minnesota.
Senator Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chair and Ranking Member
Toomey, and welcome to our panelists. Though I have been in and
out of the room I have been watching from my office when I
could, so I am just so grateful for your willingness to serve
our country and to bring your amazing experience and
credentials to these extremely important roles.
Ms. Gordon, I would like to start with you. I was so
pleased to see such a broad array of organizations supporting
your nomination, from the Urban League to the Mortgage Bankers
to Habitat for Humanity, have all endorsed your nomination. You
know, these groups from all across the country believe that you
do possess the skills that we need in this moment, in this very
important role, as they do for the others on our panel. So it
is wonderful to be able to have a chance to support your
nomination.
When we spoke we talked a little bit about the issues of
home ownership disparity. So in my State, Minnesota is a
relatively prosperous and progressive State. But in the Twin
Cities, where I live, the home ownership rate is 70 percent for
White families but only about 21 percent for Black families.
This is the highest gap in home ownership in the entire
country, and it has gotten worse, not better, recently, with
Black home ownership rates dropping from about 31 percent to 21
percent in the last two decades.
So this is a huge priority for me. It is essential to
address if we want to get at the fundamental inequalities
around wealth. Let me just ask you, what do you see you can do,
we can do, in this moment to address this great disparity in
home ownership?
Ms. Gordon. Thank you so much for that question, and I am
going to give two part to my answer. The most important thing
we can do right now is to prevent more families from losing
their homes. We know that COVID has impacted communities of
color and families of color more than other communities. And
these are where people are at risk, and if FHA can manage
through this process and keep people in their homes we will be,
you know, at least not losing ground, and that is critically
important.
In terms of beginning to gain ground, I wish there were one
silver bullet. I actually think we need to have an array of
policies, you know, whether it is looking at small-balance
mortgages, whether it is looking at other housing types, such
as manufactured housing, whether it is looking at issues
related to the fact that most Black families approach home
ownership with less family wealth to depend on, or whether it
is looking at issues around valuation as the interagency
commission looking at appraisals is now doing.
We are going to have to go at all of these things to try to
make a difference in something that has been a really
persistent problem. You know, Minneapolis has been a leader
with changing its zoning, which is going to be very important
both on that supply side and on that side of providing access
to affordable housing for all the families who live there.
Senator Smith. The innovation that Minneapolis has pursued
with their inclusionary zoning policies, I do think is a model
for the country, in terms of reducing barriers to building
affordable housing. Several of us on the Democratic side have
been talking about this challenge of supply and how that is
creating an additional challenge right now.
Now again, in my hometown of Minneapolis, we look at the
decline in home ownership amongst families of color, and I
think about what happened back in 2008-2009, when homes that
were owned by Black families, they were foreclosed up on
because they were preyed upon, with subprime mortgages. And
what happened, those houses were bought up by outside entities,
and we see that happening here again today. This is an issue
that Senator Warren brought up at the end of her questions.
In Minnesota, all over the place, but especially in north
Minneapolis, one large private equity firm has bought up
hundreds of homes, turning them into permanent rental
properties and thereby reducing the supply of homes that could
be purchased.
Talk to us a little bit about what we could do to address
this challenge.
Ms. Gordon. Sure. That is a challenge that we are seeing in
a lot of places right now, especially as the way we transact
housing is evolving from the old system, where you just went to
the Multiple Listing Service and all the houses were there.
There is a lot more happening now on auction websites, a lot
more transactions that are limited to just cash, and what is
happening is that is locking typical families, not just low-
income families, middle-class families out of home ownership.
And so if I were confirmed, I would want to take a look at
what we can do to, you know, help families both achieve home
ownership and, you know, in the face of any economic challenges
maintain that home ownership.
Senator Smith. Well, good. I am glad to hear that. You
clearly understand that these issue are complicated. It is a
supply issue and a demand issue, but fundamentally the housing
market is not working for so many families, particularly
families of color. So I look forward to supporting all of your
nominations, and thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Smith. Senator Ossoff of
Georgia is recognized for 5 minutes.
Senator Ossoff. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member
Toomey, and thank you to our panel. Congratulations on your
nominations.
Ms. Gordon, I would like to discuss with you the importance
of transit-oriented development and the particular needs of the
State of Georgia and the metro Atlanta region. Brookings
Institution study found that just 22 percent of jobs in the
Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta metro area were accessible by
transit in 2018. The Atlanta region's expected population
growth through 2050 is equivalent to the current population of
Denver, Colorado. I have been persistently advocating, in
discussions with the Secretary of Transportation, and I think
Chairman Brown can attest to my persistence in our
conversations as well, about the need for a transformative
investment in transit infrastructure in the State of Georgia.
First of all, your thoughts generally on transit-oriented
development, and will you commit to working with me, if
confirmed, to ensure that housing policy that affects the
Atlanta region and the State of Georgia, is linked with our
infrastructure and transit policy to improve quality of life
and make sure that working-class families, in particular, have
access to the transportation solutions necessary for effective
mobility to reduce traffic gridlock and expand economic
opportunity.
Ms. Gordon. Senator, I will absolutely commit to working
with you on it. I believe transit-oriented development is good
for the economy, good for the environment, and good for equity.
And I would be delighted to work with your office on this set
of issues.
Senator Ossoff. Thank you, Ms. Gordon. I appreciate that.
I would like to ask you, Mr. Green, Senator Smith just
raised the issue of private equity and other financial services
institutions and companies buying up a significant share of
U.S. housing stock for purposes of managing it as rental
property. Could you give us an assessment of the causes, the
drivers of that dynamic, and could you comment specifically on
whether there is a link with monetary policy, the expansion of
the money supply, injection of liquidity into capital markets,
increasing cash reserves for major banking institutions and
private equity hedge funds, which are then driving much of that
capital into these investments?
Mr. Greene. Yeah, thank you for the question, Senator. I do
recognize the tremendous challenges and the risk of loss of
home ownership in so many communities across the country,
particularly communities of color. And I think one of the main
causes currently is the financial hardship on existing
homeowners, and I agree with my colleague that the first line
of defense, really, is to be able to help people keep their
homes and not be forced into a situation where they have to
sell to a private equity firm. So I think that is one of the
main causes.
I appreciate your question about the link to the monetary
supply. I do not have an answer for you. It would be something
that I would want to take a hard look, if I was fortunate
enough to be confirmed. I am familiar with some of those
dynamics in the wake of the 2008 foreclosure crisis, and had
done some work at that point, but I would want to take a look
at what is currently happening in that regard.
But I completely agree with the need for better
understanding of what the current dynamics are, and for HUD and
the Federal Government to do the best it can to help keep
people in their homes and preserve home ownership.
Senator Ossoff. Thank you, Mr. Greene. And with respect to
the housing affordability crisis, which is felt acutely across
my State, this is really a question for all three of you. If
confirmed, will you commit to me that you will come to the
State of Georgia, that you will visit with elected and
community leaders in Atlanta, in Savannah, in Augusta, in
Columbus, to help assess what is driving the affordability
crisis in my State, and to work with community leaders to
develop solutions? Beginning with you, Ms. Gordon, please.
Ms. Gordon. Absolutely. If I am confirmed I would love to
visit your State. I think it is incredibly important for
leadership in our agencies to travel around the country. You
get such a good feel for things that way. And I do love the
State of Georgia.
Mr. Uejio. Thank you, Senator. I would be delighted to join
in your State, to really get a firsthand look. I have always
believed that policymaking driven by those who are closest to
the experience of vulnerable people is policymaking that is
good for the country.
Mr. Greene. Yeah, thank you, Senator. I would be delighted.
I absolutely commit, and as I stated earlier, one of my top
priorities for the Office of Policy Development and Research
would be to have research that reflects and captures the
experiences of people in communities on the ground, and one of
the best ways to do that is to have leadership actually visit
those places. So absolutely.
Senator Ossoff. Thank you. I hope to have the chance to
welcome you and to establish this task force on affordable
housing in the State of Georgia.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Ossoff, and I love your
State too, because of my mother, as you know.
Senator Cortez Masto from Nevada is recognized for 5
minutes.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you. Well, I would hope that
once you are nominated and appointed to these positions that
you do not forget Nevada. So we will look forward to having you
come out to Nevada. I love Georgia, but as somebody who was
born and raised in Nevada, we want you to see what we have to
offer and the challenges that we have around housing as well.
So let me just say, I am so thrilled that President Biden
has nominated really three housing experts with decades of
experience to serve our Nation's families and communities at
the Department of Housing and Urban Development. Ms. Gordon,
Mr. Uejio, thank you for the conversation. Thank you for your
willingness, all three of you, to serve, and your focus on
really what we have been touching on today, which is the
necessity around housing, fair housing, and making sure
everybody has that opportunity to have a roof over their head.
Let me start with one conversation--first-time homebuyers.
We have been talking about this, Ms. Gordon. You and I talked
about this. Nationally, the median existing home price is
$363,000. That is in June. It is up 23 percent from a year
earlier. It is a challenge for us. And we have had this
conversation about really what can FHA do to ensure that we are
helping first-time homebuyers, knowing that the price has
risen, and knowing that we have, in Nevada, a number of Black
and Latino homebuyers who are really unable to even purchase
their first home. I am curious your thoughts on what we should
be doing.
Ms. Gordon. Thank you so much for that question. You have
put your finger on one of the troubling things in the market
today. The pace of home price appreciation is--I think the
technical term is ``insane.'' And we are going to need to go at
that both from the supply side and the demand side. You know,
clearly we are facing a shortage of inventory, particularly in
those lower-value band, that first-time homebuyers can afford.
That is what I see in the communities I work in now. There
may be, you know, more house at that $750,000 price point, but
that is not where most families can start. And that is the area
where there is, you know, more competition with cash, and it is
going to be important to make sure that if people do sell their
homes that those homes can be accessible to potentially other
owner-occupants, other families who are able to find out about
that transaction and not just have it happen, you know, perhaps
on a website that, you know, they do not have the cash to go
and use.
We are going to have to build. I think the Neighborhood
Homes Investment Act, if it were to be passed, would really
enable significant new construction and rehab of vacant homes
in some of the communities that are more affordable to first-
time homebuyers. But at the same time, we will have to look at
what we can do on the demand side, you know, how do we help
people get into mortgages? How do we make sure that when
someone does find an affordable home that there is a lender
willing to do that mortgage when they could spend their time
doing a more expensive mortgage? You know, that is a really
tough issue that we are going to need to grapple with.
FHA has begun to look at that issue. I would like to look
at it more. And just, you know, making sure that people are not
locked out of home ownership just because they are a first-
generation homebuyer, you know, as I was. You know, we all have
personal stories. I was fortunate to marry somebody who had
done the smart thing and bought a home in his 20s, with an FHA
mortgage. And I think we can be creative and all work together.
I think the lending industry is powerfully interested in
these questions, and I believe we are positioned to bring
together an unprecedented coalition of stakeholders to work on
these important issues.
Senator Cortez Masto. I could not agree more, and I so
appreciate your comments. And I want to note, that is why I
suspect the National Association of Realtors, the Mortgage
Bankers Association, the National Housing Conference, and more
than 100 other organizations out there see you as a leader and
support this nomination. I do think it is important we all come
together to address this issue.
With the leader's indulgence, I have one more question.
Chairman Brown. Of course.
Senator Cortez Masto. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Uejio,
let me talk to you about fair housing. You mentioned that your
father-in-law, in our conversation, struggled to find housing
after he became disabled. If confirmed to lead HUD's Office of
Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity, how will you ensure that
the office can handle complaints of discrimination based on
disability?
Mr. Uejio. Thank you so much for that question, Senator,
and for your leadership, more broadly, on issues of fair
housing. Rightly so, I think there is much that can be done to
build upon the existing infrastructure in the Office of Fair
Housing and Equal Opportunity to really ensure that that office
is positioned to hear complaints from everyone's constituents
about discrimination that they suspect, on all of the protected
bases, whether they are servicemembers and veterans, whether
they are disabled, or whether they are experiencing
discrimination based on sexual orientation, gender, or familial
status. They need and deserve a strong FHEO that they can hear
from, a process they can navigate, and a commitment from that
office to handle their complaints timely and work with our fair
housing partners all across the country to address
discrimination wherever it is present.
Senator Cortez Masto. Wonderful. Thank you. And again, I
look forward to working with you on these issues and others.
And again, I know this has probably been noted, but I have seen
so many letters of support for your nomination as well,
including the National Coalition of Asian Pacific Americans for
Community Development and the Asian Americans Advancing
Justice. So I think, really, all three of you--and Mr. Greene,
I am running out of time and I did not have time to ask you a
question, but there is no doubt in my mind you all have the
background and experience to really do these positions that you
have been nominated for. And if you are appointed I look
forward to working with all three of you. Thank you again.
Chairman Brown. Thank you, Senator Cortez Masto. Thanks to
the nominees for being here today and providing testimony. It
was a full and useful discussion of the issues. I hope to move
quickly forward on Ms. Gordon, Mr. Uejio, and Mr. Greene's
nominations after returning from the August break, when we are
back in September.
For Senators who wish to submit questions for the hearing
record those questions are due at the close of business on
Monday, August 9. For the three of you, we would like to have
your responses by noon on Friday, August 13.
Thank you again. The Committee is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:43 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
[Prepared statements, biographical sketches of nominees,
responses to written questions, and additional material
supplied for the record follow:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN SHERROD BROWN
Today, we will consider three nominations for critical roles at the
Department of Housing and Urban Development.
Julia Gordon has been nominated to serve as Assistant Secretary of
Housing and Commissioner of the Federal Housing Administration.
Ms. Gordon currently serves as president of the National Community
Stabilization Trust, a nonprofit organization that supports
neighborhood revitalization and affordable home ownership.
Previously, Ms. Gordon served as the manager of the single-family
policy team at the Federal Housing Finance Agency, working to help
families stay in their homes following the 2008 financial crisis.
If confirmed, Ms. Gordon would lead the Federal Housing
Administration, or FHA. As Commissioner of FHA, Ms. Gordon would play a
pivotal role in helping thousands of homeowners weather this pandemic
and stay in their homes.
Welcome, Ms. Gordon.
David Uejio is the President's nominee to serve as Assistant
Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity.
Mr. Uejio currently serves as Acting Director of the Consumer
Financial Protection Bureau. Previously, Mr. Uejio served in different
roles in public service at NIH, OPM, and DOD.
As Assistant Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity, Mr.
Uejio would oversee the implementation and enforcement of laws that
protect homeowners and renters from housing discrimination.
We are glad to have you here today, Mr. Uejio.
Finally, we welcome Mr. Solomon Greene. Mr. Greene is the
President's nominee to serve as Assistant Secretary for Policy
Development and Research.
Mr. Greene currently serves as a senior fellow at the Urban
Institute, where he leads research into fair housing, and how we lift
up all residents by creating economic growth in our communities.
Mr. Greene previously served as Senior Advisor at HUD, a litigation
associate at a major law firm, and an adjunct professor at NYU's Wagner
Graduate School of Public Service.
As the head of Policy Development and Research, Mr. Greene will
lead HUD's research and provide data on housing and community
development issues that will help inform policy decisions.
These nominees have strong records in housing policy and
management. They will bring their breadth of experience to HUD at a
time when our country needs it most.
That's what our hearing should focus on today. So I'm disappointed
that the Ranking Member has instead decided to attack these public
servants and spread misinformation.
These nominees have already responded to Senator Toomey--they did
it on Monday, and their own words made it clear they support the
police. Every Democrat in the Senate, and President Biden, all
supported the American Rescue Plan, which provided critical funding to
local police departments--because of course we support the police. I'm
disappointed the Ranking Member continues to act otherwise.
I wish my Republican colleagues would put as much effort into
bringing down the cost of housing for families as they do into this
political theatre.
The Ohioans I talk to are exhausted by this kind of division and
distraction.
And they're certainly not worried about some retweet from a year
ago. People want to know what we're going to do--those in Government,
and those in Congress--to make their lives better.
Today's nominees have been selected to provide their expertise at
important agencies that are doing real work--work that has the
potential to bring down people's rents, and to help more families get a
mortgage for their first home and join the middle class.
And unlike many of the unqualified nominees in the previous
Administration that came before this Committee, today's nominees have
the experience and preparation to make real progress.
I want to know today from these nominees--what will they do to make
it easier for Ohioans and people around the country to afford a home?
What will they do to root out discrimination in housing? What will they
do to find creative solutions to the housing challenges families face
in communities large and small, urban, and rural?
Let's do our jobs today, and focus on the results Americans care
about, and expect from their public servants.
Thank you to all of these nominees for your willingness to serve.
I look forward to your testimonies today.
I'd like to enter into the record letters of support that the
Committee has received for the nominees.
______
PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR PATRICK J. TOOMEY
Mr. Chairman, thank you.
Under both Presidents Obama and Biden, I've repeatedly supported
nominees who had the necessary experience, temperament, and policy
views to serve. Unfortunately, the nominees before us today--who have
been nominated for seniors positions at HUD--do not meet all of these
important criteria.
My objection to these nominees is not because they issued offensive
tweets, it's because of what those tweets, and their own writings in
other mediums, tell us about what they believe.
Let's consider Solomon Greene. He's repeatedly made troubling
statements denigrating the police and advocating for the defunding of
the police. Some of these statements he made on Twitter. But others he
made in an article he himself wrote just last June.
In that article, he alleged that ``overpolicing'' endangers
communities of color, and he advocated for ''recapturing funding for
the police''--a euphemism for defunding the police--and reallocating
that funding to other uses, such as ``community arts and cultural
institutions'' at a time when crime rates in America's major cities are
on the rise.
These views are so outside the political mainstream that they
disqualify him from holding a senior leadership position at HUD.
Equally concerning are Julia Gordon's past statements. Ms. Gordon,
among other things, retweeted a post that described police officers as
``the people killing us.'' She also suggested in a letter that she
wrote--not a tweet or a retweet--that police violence stems from
``flawed and biased systems that require structural change.''
Additionally, Ms. Gordon disparaged elected Republican officials.
For example, she attacked Senator Lindsey Graham as ``desperate'' and
``#LyingLindsey.''
In my view, these and other troubling statements are clearly
outside the political mainstream and disqualify her from serving in a
senior position at HUD.
Unfortunately, we don't know the full extent of Mr. Greene and Ms.
Gordon's public statements because they deleted some of their
previously public tweets before being nominated. I asked them to try to
recover their deleted tweets from Twitter. But they've refused to
comply with this reasonable request. It makes you wonder: What do they
have to hide?
As the Senate evaluates nominees' fitness for senior leadership
positions, it's important the public has a full picture of their policy
views, judgment, and character. A nominee's past public statements
matter, and a nominee should not be able to avoid scrutiny by merely
clicking a button marked delete.
All of the Republicans on this Committee have written to President
Biden asking him to withdraw Mr. Greene and Ms. Gordon's nominations
because of their past anti-police statements. And we are not alone in
our concern. The National Sheriffs' Association, which represents
thousands of sheriffs across the country, has written letters opposing
both of these nominees.
Mr. Uejio also has a record that makes him unqualified to serve in
a senior position at HUD. As CFPB Acting Director, he's publicly
promoted the view that our criminal justice system, which includes
police officers, is infected with ``latent, structural racism.''
Beyond that, what's most troubling about his record is his lack of
housing experience, especially on fair housing issues. He's been
nominated to run HUD's fair housing office, which is responsible for
protecting households from housing discrimination. Yet nothing in his
background suggests that he has the experience or qualifications to
enforce and administer the Nation's fair housing laws.
He's served as CFPB Acting Director for only a few months. But in
that short time he's reportedly taken concerning personnel actions,
refused to provide information to Congress, ignored stakeholders on
important housing matters, and returned the CFPB to the path of
regulation by enforcement.
There have been serious allegations that, under Mr. Uejio's
leadership, the CFPB is taking unusual and possibly unlawful actions to
forcibly replace career civil servants with loyalists. Yet he's refused
to provide Congress with documents relating to these allegations.
Ignoring stakeholder input, Mr. Uejio also decided to delay the
transition to CFPB's new Qualified Mortgage rule--despite industry,
consumer, and civil rights groups, and bipartisan Senators from this
very Committee urging him to reconsider. In fact, despite stakeholder
concerns, the CFPB stated it will consider rewriting the rule.
In addition, Mr. Uejio rescinded CFPB policies that provided
regulatory clarity, clearing the path for the CFPB to return to
regulation-by-enforcement. Finally, he's shown little regard for the
CFPB's jurisdictional limits.
I'm troubled that the Biden administration has chosen nominees who
have made it clear, through their writings, tweets, and retweets, that
they are hostile to the police, subscribe to the theory that the police
are racists, and support defunding the police. These statements speak
directly to their policy views and temperament and therefore they are
extremely relevant to our consideration of their nominations.
______
PREPARED STATEMENT OF JULIA R. GORDON
To Be Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
August 5, 2021
Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Toomey, and distinguished Members of
the Committee, I am deeply honored and humbled to appear before you
today as the nominee for Assistant Secretary for Housing and Federal
Housing Commissioner of the Department of Housing and Urban
Development.
I want to begin by thanking President Biden and Secretary Fudge for
the confidence and trust they have placed in me. I would also like to
thank the Committee for scheduling this hearing and considering my
nomination.
Before I talk more about my experience, I would also like to
recognize and thank my family who have joined me today. My husband
Geoffrey Berman is my most enthusiastic cheerleader and with more than
30 years at the Pentagon as a civilian IT expert supporting our troops,
he models what it means to be a true public servant.
My daughter Rochelle Berman, a rising high school senior, gives me
so much hope for the future with her love of learning and her gift for
connection with others.
I would also like to thank my mother Rhona Gordon, who cannot be
here today in person. She instilled in me the value of tikkun olam,
which means working in partnership with God to make the world a better
place. That value has been the lodestar of my life and career.
But my mom's life has not always been easy, and our family's
experience is a big part of why I believe so strongly in the honorable
mission of the Federal Housing Administration. I grew up in what we now
call single family rental, and because my parents were low income, they
did not retire with pensions or savings beyond their small social
security checks.
Today, my mom lives in a subsidized apartment building for seniors,
and her rent still would exceed her monthly income if not for
additional housing assistance she receives from the county. This lived
experience undergirds my commitment to promoting home ownership, which
is the best path to family stability and prosperity, and to ensuring
that we support safe, affordable, and habitable rental housing.
If confirmed, I look forward to working with President Biden,
Secretary Fudge, and Congress on several time-sensitive priorities.
First and foremost is preventing foreclosures stemming from COVID-
related economic hardship. Currently, more than [850,000] FHA
homeowners are behind on their mortgage payments. Most have had a CARES
Act forbearance for more than a year now, which has left them with
considerable arrearages, and many have seen a permanent reduction in
income. While FHA has already done a lot of hard work to develop the
right tools to help these homeowners begin to pay their mortgage again,
there is still a very steep hill to climb.
My experience uniquely qualifies me to lead FHA's team at this
time. Back in 2007, I worked at the Center for Responsible Lending,
where my work centered first on advocating against predatory mortgage
lending and later on foreclosure prevention.
Subsequently, I moved to the Federal Housing Finance Agency, where
I managed the policy team overseeing the efforts Fannie Mae and Freddie
Mac to provide loss mitigation for homeowners. Currently, as president
of the National Community Stabilization Trust, I focus on the
connection between housing and strong neighborhoods, working to prevent
blight and create more opportunities for home ownership. Through these
experiences, I've learned important lessons and developed deep
technical expertise and stakeholder relationships that I can use to
navigate the road ahead if I'm confirmed to this position.
Additionally, if I'm confirmed, I would prioritize increasing the
supply of affordable housing for both rental and ownership. In fact, my
work on supply long predated today's headlines. Over the past decade,
the team I lead has helped community-based developers put more than
27,000 blighted properties back to work for families. We also provide
capital to small businesses seeking to create new home ownership, and
we advocate for supply-oriented initiatives such as the Neighborhood
Homes Investment Act.
Those of you on this Committee deeply understand that safe,
healthy, and affordable housing is the necessary precondition for
families and communities to thrive and prosper. If I'm confirmed, I
look forward to working with you to achieve that goal for as many
households as possible.
Thank you so much for the opportunity to testify before you today.
I look forward to your questions.
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PREPARED STATEMENT OF DAVID UEJIO
To Be Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
August 5, 2021
Thank You Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Toomey, and Members of the
Committee, I am incredibly honored and humbled to appear before you
today as the nominee for Assistant Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal
Opportunity at the Department of Housing and Urban Development. I want
to begin by thanking President Biden for the trust and confidence he
has placed in me by nominating me for this position.
I would also like to thank my family and friends for their endless
support of me over many years of public service. I especially want to
thank my wife who has believed in me every step along the way and is
here with me at today's hearing.
If confirmed, my role will be to enforce our Nation's fair housing
laws and to create strong, sustainable, and inclusive communities for
all Americans. I believe wholeheartedly in this mission. FHEO's work is
critical to millions of American families, and I'm deeply grateful and
would be honored to lead the Office if I were confirmed.
I have dedicated my career to public service. As the Consumer
Financial Protection Bureau's Chief Strategy Officer, I worked directly
with Director Cordray, Acting Director Mulvaney, and Director Kraninger
to articulate their policy vision and priorities and to protect
America's consumers. I have a proven track record of translating
statutory language into actionable plans, translating the Bureau's
mission into concrete outcomes for the American public. I have
leveraged my expertise in strategy, policy implementation, and
operational leadership to drive four Federal agencies to be more than
the sum of their parts, strengthening mission delivery everywhere I
have served. As a career civil servant, I have served with honor and
integrity in carrying out the missions these agencies, always seeking
to provide the American public with the world class Government they
deserve. These values have always served as my North Star and would
continue to do so if I were confirmed in this role.
Over the last 6 months, I have had the opportunity to lead
America's consumer financial protection agency. As Acting Director of
the CFPB, I have centered the experience of individual consumers,
starting with the most vulnerable. I have enforced American's consumer
financial protection laws, deploying the Bureau's enforcement,
supervision, rulemaking, and guidance tools to protect vulnerable
consumers from illegal, unfair, deceptive, and abusive acts and
practices. I have overseen the Bureau's complaint handling function,
responding to over 500,000 complaints in 2020 from consumers seeking
help. Under my leadership, the Bureau has returned to publishing
regular analysis of the complaints we receive from consumers seeking
help, including the first ever CFPB-published analysis of demographic
data and our May bulletin highlighting problems encountered by mortgage
borrowers. I have determined the strategic direction and allocated
additional resources toward advancing racial and economic equity,
including through the Bureau's fair lending work under the Equal Credit
Opportunity Act, which includes supervision of regulated entities and
major fair lending enforcement matters. Finally, at a time when our
country has faced extraordinary obstacles as a result of the COVID-19
pandemic and resulting economic disruption, I have focused the Bureau's
resources on doing what we can to keep consumers housed.
As a third-generation immigrant from Japan, I have seen firsthand
the barriers to opportunity that can arise from discrimination in
housing. My grand uncle was interned during World War II; more recently
my father in law became severely disabled and had difficulty finding to
accessible housing. My life has shown me the crucial role housing plays
in providing access to opportunity for every American; and no
American's path to secure housing should be blocked by unlawful
discrimination.
I am committed to upholding and implementing our Nation's housing
laws, including the Fair Housing Act. Were I fortunate enough to be
confirmed, I would execute FHEO's mission under Secretary Fudge with
transparency, integrity, and impartiality, and I would look forward to
working with this committee to ensure equitable access to housing for
all Americans. Most importantly, I will continue to put the people we
serve at the heart of everything I do. Thank you to this Committee for
the privilege of appearing before you today and I look forward to
answering your questions.
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PREPARED STATEMENT OF SOLOMON J. GREENE
To Be Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
August 5, 2021
Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Toomey, and distinguished Members of
the Committee, I am deeply honored to appear before you today as you
consider my nomination.
I want to begin by thanking President Biden and Secretary Fudge for
the confidence and trust they placed in me by nominating me for this
important position. I would also like to thank my family for their love
and unwavering support.
I would also like to express my heartfelt gratitude to several
mentors who have been instrumental in my life, including the Honorable
Dorothy Nelson, Ingrid Gould Ellen, Katherine O'Regan, Erika Poethig,
and Sarah Rosen Wartell.
Senators, HUD is currently navigating a rapidly evolving housing
crisis, and it is playing a central role in helping the Nation build
back better from the pandemic. We are at a moment in our Nation's
history when HUD's mission is more important than ever.
Throughout my career I have sought to apply the best available
research, data, and evidence to advance HUD's mission. My work on
housing and urban development policy has been motivated by three deeply
held commitments, which I believe would make me well-suited to serve if
confirmed.
First, I have dedicated my career to helping all families find and
keep stable and affordable housing. This is something I grew to
appreciate from an early age.
I was raised primarily by a single mother who earned so little
while working full-time as a nurse that we received Medicaid and food
stamps. By economic necessity, my family often moved to where we could
afford the rent until my mother was able to scrimp and save just enough
for a downpayment on a house in a rural county in New York.
That house and property, where my mother still lives with my
brother, his wife, and my baby nephew, provided the stability I needed
to be able to focus on school and my future. I truly believe it is why
I am able to sit here before you today as a nominee.
These early experiences also instilled in me the recognition that a
home is more than a roof over your head--it is also a platform for
health and well-being and a downpayment on your children's future.
Throughout my career, I have strived to give every family the
opportunities I was given by studying policies and programs that expand
options for safe, stable, and affordable housing.
Second, I believe that evidence-based housing and community
development policies can help ensure that every child has a fair shot
in life. The American Dream is the idea that, no matter who you are or
where you come from, if you work hard and give it your all, you will
succeed. I have dedicated my career to ensuring that where you come
from does not determine who you can become later in life.
I study the policies that shape communities and the opportunities
they offer their residents. For years, I have worked with Federal,
State, and local leaders to design and test policies that revitalize
communities, expand neighborhood choices, and boost upward mobility.
Finally, and most importantly for the position to which I have been
nominated, I am passionate about using the best available data and
evidence to inform public policy decisions at all levels of Government.
I am first and foremost a researcher with a strong and proven
commitment to evidence-based policymaking. I have demonstrated this
through over two decades of work on data-driven and community-informed
housing policy: from my work in local government to my work at HUD, as
a graduate student in law and urban planning, a legal research fellow
and adjunct professor at NYU, and mostly recently for almost 7 years as
a senior researcher at the Urban Institute.
In all of my work, I have applied independent, unbiased, and
objective research to help ensure that our public policies are rooted
in evidence, maximize the impact of limited resources, and respond to
the realities of people and communities on the ground.
I am also passionate about bringing together researchers,
practitioners, and policymakers to identify evidence-based and data-
driven policy solutions to our Nation's housing and community
development challenges. I firmly believe that rigorous research can
provide diverse stakeholders a common frame through which to assess
problems and a shared foundation to find solutions.
Thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. I look
forward to your questions.
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RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF CHAIRMAN BROWN
FROM JULIA R. GORDON
Q.1. Where have you excelled in past positions in attracting,
hiring, and promoting people of color in positions in your
organization? Where might there be room for improvement?
A.1. Hiring and retaining a diverse workforce at the Federal
Housing Administration is of utmost importance to me.
Throughout my career, I have prioritized recruiting people of
color as well as women, since both of these demographic groups
are underrepresented in the housing finance field. As the
President of the National Community Stabilization Trust (NCST),
I have made several key changes in how NCST's job descriptions
are written to support hiring more people of color, such as
including salary ranges rather than advertising ``salary
commensurate with experience'' as is typical in the nonprofit
sector; allowing work experience to substitute for college
experience; and listing the position in channels aimed
specifically at people of color. There is significant room for
improvement in making the housing finance field attractive to
young people of color. We need to highlight the connection
between housing and racial equity and to showcase the impactful
nature of our work on communities.
Q.2. What specific measures will you use to evaluate the
success of the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development
in understanding and addressing the needs of Black, Indigenous,
and people of color (BIPOC)? And, will you work with the
Secretary and senior officials to keep Congress apprised, as
appropriate, on the progress being made on these measures?
A.2. The strength and vitality of BIPOC communities are central
to HUD's mission and to Secretary Fudge's goals for her tenure.
I will work with her to ensure that FHA's programs are
operating with equitable outcomes in mind and meeting the needs
of the people and communities we serve best. I am deeply
committed to this mission, and to keeping Congress apprised of
our successes, progress, and any needs we have to fulfill these
goals if I am confirmed.
Q.3. What is your plan for creating an inclusive working
environment for employees within your office?
A.3. If confirmed, I will make it a priority to build and
maintain an inclusive working environment at FHA. While FHA
already has a very high percentage of BIPOC staff, an inclusive
working environment goes beyond statistics. Under my
management, decision-making processes will be broad-based,
reaching into the career staff as well as outside FHA when
appropriate. Additionally, I will make it a priority to provide
employees with effective training and coaching around diversity
and discrimination, and I will work with the relevant offices
at HUD to ensure that any instances of harassment or
discrimination are addressed swiftly.
------
RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR TOOMEY
FROM JULIA R. GORDON
Q.1. Congressional oversight--Please provide your philosophy on
how HUD will approach and respond to Congressional information
requests (both for documentary information and oral testimony),
if you are confirmed.
A.1. I recognize that Congress plays an important oversight
role regarding executive branch activities, and I pledge to
thoughtfully consider all Congressional information requests,
recognizing the importance of transparency in Government. If
confirmed, I pledge to work through the accommodations process
to comply with Congressional requests for information to the
fullest extent consistent with the constitutional and statutory
obligations of the executive branch.
Q.2. If confirmed, do you intend to respond to information
requests differently depending on who is making the
Congressional information request (whether it's the chair of
the Congressional committee, the Ranking Member, or another
member of Congress)? Please answer ``yes'' or ``no.'' If your
answer is ``yes,'' please explain.
A.2. I recognize that Congress plays an important oversight
role regarding executive branch activities, and I pledge to
thoughtfully consider all Congressional information requests,
recognizing the importance of transparency in Government. If
confirmed, I pledge to work through the accommodations process
to comply with Congressional requests for information to the
fullest extent consistent with the constitutional and statutory
obligations of the executive branch.
Q.3. Will you commit that, if confirmed, you will timely
respond to and fully comply with all information requests from
me? Please answer ``yes'' or ``no.'' If your answer is ``no,''
please explain.
A.3. I recognize that Congress plays an important oversight
role regarding executive branch activities, and I pledge to
thoughtfully consider all Congressional information requests
including from any member, recognizing the importance of
transparency in Government. If confirmed, I pledge to work
through the accommodations process to comply with Congressional
requests for information to the fullest extent consistent with
the constitutional and statutory obligations of the executive
branch.
Q.4. Will you commit that, if confirmed, you will make yourself
and any other HUD employee expeditiously available to provide
oral testimony (including but not limited to briefings,
hearings, and transcribed interviews) to the Committee on any
matter within its jurisdiction, upon the request of either the
Chairman or Ranking Member? Please answer ``yes'' or ``no.'' If
your answer is ``no,'' please explain why.
A.4. I recognize that oral testimony plays an important role in
Congress' important oversight responsibilities regarding
executive branch activities. If confirmed, I commit to brief or
testify regarding Congressional requests consistent with this
important oversight function.
Q.5. Do you believe that HUD may assert any privileges or other
legal justifications to withhold information (whether records
or oral testimony) from Congress? Please answer ``yes'' or
``no.''
A.5. My understanding is that any determination as to whether
HUD has an applicable privilege or other justification to
withhold information from Congress would be made by the Office
of General Counsel. Should I be confirmed, and should such a
question arise during my tenure, I would consult closely with
that office.
Q.6. If you answered ``yes'' to the preceding question, please
list every such privilege or other legal justification and
provide the legal basis for why you believe HUD may use such
privilege or legal justification to withhold information from
Congress.
A.6. As noted above, any determination as to whether HUD has an
applicable privilege or other justification to withhold
information from Congress would be made by the Office of
General Counsel and identified clearly as such at that time.
Q.7. In an effort to be open and transparent with Congress and
the public, will you commit not to assert any such privilege or
legal justification against Congress that you listed above? If
not, why not? If so, please identify all such privileges or
legal justifications that you will commit to not assert against
Congress.
A.7. If confirmed, I would work with the Office of General
Counsel to ensure that I am complying with any and all legal
requirements.
Q.8. Barriers to Affordable Housing--In January 2021, HUD
released a report entitled ``Eliminating Regulatory Barriers to
Affordable Housing: Federal, State, Local, and Tribal
Opportunities'', which ``identifies many Federal regulations
and practices that could be revised to eliminate unnecessary
burdens to providing Americans with affordable, safe, quality
places to live, including opportunities to make sustainable
home ownership more achievable.'' \1\ Which of the report's
recommendations do you agree with?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ HUD, ``Eliminating Regulatory Barriers to Affordable Housing:
Federal, State, Local, and Tribal Opportunities'', (Jan. 19, 2021),
available at https://www.huduser.gov/portal//portal/sites/default/
files/pdf/eliminating-regulatory-barriers-to-affordable-housing.pdf.
A.8. The report you reference is a comprehensive document
identifying myriad opportunities, many of which I would like to
explore more if given the opportunity to serve. If confirmed, I
would be happy to discuss these recommendations with your
office in more detail as I learn more about each of the areas
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
addressed.
Q.9. The January 2021 HUD report on barriers to affordable
housing described regulatory and sub-regulatory changes to
modernize Davis-Bacon. \2\ Do you support and will you work to
implement any administrative reforms to update Davis-Bacon?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\2\ Id. at 48-49.
A.9. If confirmed, I would follow the Secretary's leadership
and would support, as needed, working with DOL to further
assess ways in which the Federal Government can streamline
Davis-Bacon rules and regulations while maintaining the
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
integrity of the law.
Q.10. Multifamily Application queue--In recent months, the wait
times for HUD Multifamily applications to be processed has
tripled, and in some cases, quadrupled. If this continues, it
could shrink the supply of affordable and workforce rental
units. How will you address the wait times for HUD Multifamily
applications? What steps will you be take to ensure that HUD
Multifamily can adequately respond to expansion and contraction
in the future?
A.10. Due to record demand and staffing constraints, there is a
queue for FHA loan applications waiting to be assigned to an
underwriter. Once assigned, processing is quick. Last year, FHA
closed a record volume of loans and will do so again this year.
If confirmed as Commissioner, I would consider it a critical
priority to ensure that FHA focuses on staff expansion, systems
improvements, contractor support, and other means to reduce the
queue.
Q.11. Environmental regulations--Regarding HUD's environmental
regulations that govern HUD's programs, how will you balance
the need to protect the environment with the need to limit the
cost of building new affordable housing?
A.11. If confirmed as Commissioner, I would use existing,
Congressionally mandated processes to review environmental
regulations to take into account both environmental protection
and the affordability and availability of housing. In many
instances, making housing safer, healthier, and more
sustainable aligns with affordability, particularly when
considered over the long term. To the extent tensions between
the issues arise, I would ensure that HUD makes well-informed
decisions relying on public input, interagency feedback, and
in-house expertise.
Q.12. Manufactured housing--The Manufactured Housing Consensus
Committee (MHCC) is a Federal Advisory Committee statutorily
authorized to develop and submit to the HUD Secretary
manufactured home construction and safety standards. The law
requires the MHCC to ``submit proposed revised standards . . .
to the [HUD] Secretary in the form of a proposed rule,
including an economic analysis.'' \3\ Accordingly, the MHCC
must have resources devoted to developing these required
economic analyses. Will you provide the resources that are
necessary for the MHCC to develop economic analyses to
accompany the construction and safety standards being
considered by the MHCC so that the standards are revised to
keep up with innovations in the market?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\3\ 42 U.S.C. 5403(a)(4)(A)(ii).
A.12. Manufactured housing is an important tool to increase
access to affordable home ownership, and it is critical that it
adhere to appropriate construction and safety standards. If
confirmed, I will work to ensure that all FHA programs,
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
including the MHCC, have the necessary resources.
Q.13. Mutual Mortgage Insurance (MMI) Fund--The FY20 Report on
the MMI Fund shows that subjecting the FY20 portfolio to the
same macroeconomic conditions faced during the housing crisis
would create losses in excess of MMI Fund capital, resulting in
a MMI Fund capital ratio of -0.63 percent, below the statutory
2 percent minimum, and requiring a bailout. Would you consider
it a failure if the Federal Housing Administration (FHA) draws
funds from the Treasury to cover losses, or put more simply,
requires a bailout?
A.13. The country does not face the same macroeconomic
conditions that prevailed during the 2008 financial crisis.
Additionally, FHA has significantly improved its underwriting
criteria and loss mitigation policies since 2008, and, if
confirmed, I will work with FHA staff to continue to evaluate
the risks associated with Forward and HECM portfolios.
Additionally, I will share information with Congress through
the Annual Report to Congress on the State of the Mutual
Mortgage Insurance Fund and other communications.
Q.14. Do you think the MMI Fund as of FY20 has sufficient
capital reserves?
A.14. I am not in the position to make that determination, but
if confirmed, I look forward to working with FHA staff to
evaluate the performance of the loans currently held in the
portfolio to make that assessment.
Q.15. Do you think it is inappropriate to build a capital
buffer able to withstand a shock of the kind experienced during
the 2008 housing crisis?
A.15. Since I am not yet at HUD with access to non-public
information about the current performance of the portfolio, I
am unable to make a determination regarding the appropriate
metric to be used in setting a buffer.
Q.16. Is the statutory 2 percent MMI Fund capital ratio a
sufficient buffer to protect against taxpayer losses? If not,
what do you believe is appropriate? If not the 2008 housing
crisis, what stress level scenario should FHA consider when
deciding what capital buffer is sufficient?
A.16. FHA plays an enormously important countercyclical role in
the Nation's housing markets. As such, it is important to build
capital during strong economic periods and equally important to
be able to spend that capital during an economic downturn.
Since I am not yet at HUD with access to nonpublic information
about the current performance of the portfolio, I am unable to
make a determination regarding the appropriate metric to be
used in setting a buffer.
Q.17. Multiple Biden administration officials have expressed an
intent to impose climate stress tests and to change regulatory
standards to address climate risk for private sector market
participants. Do you think FHA's lending portfolio should be
subjected to similar climate stress tests and regulatory
standards?
A.17. Climate risk is a top priority for the Biden
administration and HUD. If confirmed, I look forward to working
with the White House and Secretary Fudge to support efforts
that safely and sustainably promote resiliency, energy
efficiency and other green initiatives within the FHA lending
space.
Q.18. Federal Housing Administration (FHA) annual report--As a
consumer of information contained in FHA's statutory report on
the status of the MMI Fund, do you find the report useful?
A.18. I do. The FHA Annual Report is extremely helpful in
identifying trends across loan type, demographics, risk factors
and loan amounts.
Q.19. Do you think any of the information presented in FHA's
FY20 Report should no longer be presented in subsequent
reports?
A.19. I am not privy to the policy discussions currently taking
place within FHA and am therefore unable to make that
determination at this time. However, if confirmed, I look
forward to working with FHA staff to identify opportunities
that may improve the overall presentation of the program's
data.
Q.20. Do you think any additional information should be
presented in subsequent reports?
A.20. If confirmed, I look forward to working with FHA staff to
identify additional areas of analysis and presentation.
Q.21. FHA mission--What is FHA's statutory mission or purpose?
Please reference specific statutes in your response.
A.21. According to the HUD website, FHA's mission is as
follows: ``We provide mortgage insurance on loans made by FHA-
approved lenders. We insure mortgages on single family homes,
multifamily properties, residential care facilities, and
hospitals throughout the United States and its territories.''
The extent to which FHA's mission and purpose derive from
specific statutes is a legal one that is primarily one for the
Office of General Counsel. Should I be confirmed and should a
question arise about whether the statutes governing FHA's
mission or purpose affect the propriety of agency action, I
would closely consult with that office.
Q.22. Will you commit to enacting policies that prioritize and
are consistent with FHA's statutory mission?
A.22. If confirmed, I will work in close consultation with the
Office of General Counsel to enact policies that are consistent
with FHA's mission and purpose, including all applicable
statutory, regulatory, and subregulatory authorities.
Q.23. Downpayment assistance--12 U.S.C. 1709(b)(9)(C)
prohibits the ``seller or any other person or entity that
financially benefits from the transaction'' from providing
funds as part of the downpayment for an FHA-insured loan. What
does ``financially benefits from the transaction'' mean to you?
A.23. Any agency interpretation of this statutory provision
would be made by the Office of General Counsel. If I am
confirmed, I will work closely with the Office of General
Counsel to ensure that FHA's actions are consistent with the
law.
Q.24. Answering questions for the record--Please describe with
particularity the process by which you answered these questions
for the record, including listing every person that assisted
you in answering these questions along with a brief description
of his or her assistance.
A.24. The Department of Housing and Urban Development received
these questions on August 9, 2021. I worked with Department
attorneys and through the interagency process to answer the
questions. I finalized and approved all answers to the
questions and authorized their transmission to the Committee on
August 13, 2021.
------
RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF
SENATOR MENENDEZ FROM JULIA R. GORDON
Q.1. You have been an advocate of finding ways to better
address downpayment requirements, which are a particular
obstacle for many minority and low-income families whose lower
family wealth makes it difficult to afford even a modest
downpayment. And since a family's home is often their largest
asset and the key way to build wealth over time, the current
dynamic only contributes to the massive economic inequality in
our country.
Can you describe why you believe addressing downpayment
challenges is so critical to expanding home ownership among
communities of color?
A.1. In today's high-priced housing market, many homebuyers
turn to parents or other relatives for assistance with a
downpayment. However, the lack of generational wealth for
homebuyers of color--which itself stems from being locked out
of the market by redlining and other forms of racial and ethnic
discrimination--poses an obstacle right at the start of the
homebuying process that is difficult to overcome without
nonfamilial sources of assistance.
Q.2. If confirmed, what steps would you take at FHA to ease
downpayment requirements, particularly for first-time
homebuyers?
A.2. I understand FHA is currently engaged in rulemaking on
that topic, and therefore it would be inappropriate for me to
comment as someone who does not yet work at HUD. If confirmed,
I will commit to ensuring that downpayment requirements are
fair, equitable, accessible, and comply with all relevant law.
My understanding is that for FHA reverse mortgage HECM
loans issued prior to September 17, 2017, FHA requires HECM
servicers to issue a due and payable letter within 30 days of
the death. This 30-day time requirement may be operationally
unfeasible using the customary method of monitoring Social
Security rolls.
Q.3. If confirmed, would you pledge to look into this issue and
consider instituting a more operationally feasible time
requirement, such as 60 days after Social Security notice of
death of the borrower?
A.3. I am committed to ensuring that the HECM program serves as
a safe and affordable mortgage option for seniors. If
confirmed, I would work with the FHA team to review existing
policies to ensure that surviving family members and servicers
are allotted adequate time to begin the reconciliation process
for HECM mortgages.
FHA's loan limit for Title I manufactured housing loans is
currently about $69,000. My understanding is that this has not
been increased since 2009. As you know, FHA Title I loans have
fallen precipitously in recent years, from 848 loans in 2017 to
only 204 loans in 2019.
Q.4. Will you commit to reviewing whether an increase of the
loan limit is appropriate, if confirmed?
A.4. If confirmed, I commit to working with the FHA
Manufactured Housing team to review the current loan limit
policy.
FHA's Title I program applies a blanket limit on
collections of $1,000, regardless of the type of collection on
a consumer's credit. FHA's Title II policy, however, excludes
medical debt collections.
Q.5. Do you believe medical debt collections should be included
in the Title I program?
A.5. If confirmed, I will work with the Manufactured Housing
Team to review the current collection policy under Title I.
Q.6. Will you commit to reviewing whether the Title I
collections policy should be aligned with the Title II policy
to exclude medical collections, if confirmed?
A.6. If confirmed, I commit to working with FHA's Manufactured
Housing staff to review the Title I collections policy to
determine if it is appropriate to align it with the current
policy under Title II.
In a report about eviction, Mr. Greene wrote that housing
counseling is an element of eviction prevention. While I was
able to include $100 million in housing counseling as part of
the American Rescue Plan, the eviction numbers show an
overwhelming need for eviction prevention help.
Q.7. In your view, what should Congress do to strengthen
housing counseling services?
A.7. Housing counseling can play an extremely important role in
helping borrowers achieve affordable home ownership and sustain
that home ownership. Congress should appropriate adequate
funding to support prepurchase, postclosing, loss mitigation,
and financial literacy counseling.
------
RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR CRAPO
FROM JULIA R. GORDON
Q.1. For a home equity conversion mortgage loan (HECM)
originating prior to September 17, 2017, the FHA requires
servicers to issue a due and payable letter within 30 days of a
death. In May 2016, FHA took steps to solve the regulatory
issue stemming from the 30 day timeline by offering changes to
the HECM regulations clarifying that notice to the Department
following the death of a mortgagor should be made within 60
days of the mortgagor's death and that notice to the borrower's
estate, and heir(s) must be made within 30 days after notifying
the Department. The accelerated time requirement of 30 days,
which still applies to loans originating prior to September 17,
2017, even after rulemaking, is resulting in unnecessary fines
because it is operationally unfeasible using the customary
method of monitoring Social Security rolls.
If confirmed, would you commit to look into this issue?
Will you consider instituting a more operationally feasible and
reasonable time requirement to all HECM loans, such as 60 days
after Social Security notice of death of the borrower?
A.1. I am committed to ensuring that the HECM program serves as
a safe and affordable mortgage option for seniors. If
confirmed, I would work with the FHA team to review existing
policies to ensure that surviving family members and servicers
are allotted adequate time to begin the reconciliation process
for HECM mortgages.
------
RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF CHAIRMAN BROWN
FROM DAVID UEJIO
Q.1. Where have you excelled in past positions in attracting,
hiring, and promoting people of color in positions in your
organization? Where might there be room for improvement?
A.1. I believe that for the Office of Fair Housing and Equal
Opportunity (FHEO) to succeed in its mission, we need to
attract and retain talent from every background and walk of
life. I have spent the past decade in significant positions at
the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB), including as
the Bureau's first lead in Talent Acquisition. In that role I
created a unique, Government leading talent acquisition program
from the ground up to support the start-up and hiring of over
700 diverse employees from all across the country. At the
National Institutes of Health, I built the agency's executive
recruitment function to allow NIH to compete directly with the
world's leading hospitals, universities, and scientific
research firms to attract diverse scientific leadership. And I
was recruited by the Undersecretary for Personnel and Readiness
to help develop the Pentagon's talent acquisition and
management strategy. Throughout my time at CFPB and in three
other Federal agencies, I excelled at attracting, hiring, and
promoting qualified people of color.
There is always room for improvement, and FHEO is no
exception. If confirmed, I would work with the Secretary, the
Deputy Secretary, and the Office of the Chief Human Capital
Officer to ensure that FHEO headquarters and regional offices
build strong relationships with university affinity networks
and professional networks that can help with recruiting people
of color. I would also work closely with our managerial staff
to ensure that FHEO staff have the opportunity to work on
meaningful projects in their areas of expertise that can
advance their careers.
Q.2. What specific measures will you use to evaluate the
success of the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development
in understanding and addressing the needs of Black, Indigenous,
and people of color (BIPOC)? And, will you work with the
Secretary and senior officials to keep Congress apprised, as
appropriate, on the progress being made on these measures?
A.2. If confirmed, I look forward to working with Congress on
this particular issue and would welcome an ongoing conversation
on HUD and FHEO's progress. Having previously served as
Performance Improvement Officer and Evaluation Officer at CFPB,
I know well the importance of relying on data to evaluate
organizational success and inform organizational priorities
such as this. As Secretary Fudge has said, first and foremost
we must prevent evictions, foreclosures, and homelessness due
to the pandemic and economic crisis which has
disproportionately impacted BIPOC. We also need to improve home
ownership for BIPOC. I would work with the Secretary to look
for ways to use fair housing tools that can help in each of
these areas.
Q.3. What is your plan for creating an inclusive working
environment for employees within your office?
A.3. Throughout the course of my career I have led initiatives
to strengthen organizational culture and performance; I know
well the incredible value of building and cultivating strong,
interdisciplinary teams to accomplish public service missions.
If confirmed, I would make it a priority to leverage this
approach to build and maintain an inclusive working environment
in FHEO. FHEO is a diverse workplace with leadership from many
different backgrounds. I would work to ensure those diverse
voices are a part of the decision-making process when it comes
to office initiatives, policy determinations, and our efforts
at recruitment and retention of talent. Through training
sessions and meetings, I would make sure everyone understands
that we value the contributions that our employees bring to
meeting FHEO's mission, and that, together, we are responsible
for maintaining a workplace that is fair, inclusive, and free
from all forms of harassment and discrimination. I will
maintain and enhance training that reinforces the values of
civil treatment and building teams based on mutual respect and
collegial relations.
------
RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR TOOMEY
FROM DAVID UEJIO
Q.1. Congressional oversight--Please provide your philosophy on
how HUD will approach and respond to Congressional information
requests (both for documentary information and oral testimony),
if you are confirmed.
A.1. I recognize that Congress plays an important oversight
role regarding executive branch activities, and I pledge to
thoughtfully consider all Congressional information requests,
recognizing the importance of transparency in Government. If
confirmed, I pledge to work through the accommodations process
to comply with Congressional requests for information to the
fullest extent consistent with the constitutional and statutory
obligations of the executive branch.
Q.2. If confirmed, do you intend to respond to information
requests differently depending on who is making the
Congressional information request (whether it's the chair of
the Congressional committee, the Ranking Member, or another
member of Congress)? Please answer ``yes'' or ``no.'' If your
answer is ``yes,'' please explain.
A.2. I recognize that Congress plays an important oversight
role regarding executive branch activities, and I pledge to
thoughtfully consider all Congressional information requests,
recognizing the importance of transparency in Government. If
confirmed, I pledge to work through the accommodations process
to comply with Congressional requests for information to the
fullest extent consistent with the constitutional and statutory
obligations of the executive branch.
Q.3. Will you commit that, if confirmed, you will timely
respond to and fully comply with all information requests from
me? Please answer ``yes'' or ``no.'' If your answer is ``no,''
please explain.
A.3. I recognize that Congress plays an important oversight
role regarding executive branch activities, and I pledge to
thoughtfully consider all Congressional information requests
including from any member, recognizing the importance of
transparency in Government. If confirmed, I pledge to work
through the accommodations process to comply with Congressional
requests for information to the fullest extent consistent with
the constitutional and statutory obligations of the executive
branch.
Q.4. Will you commit that, if confirmed, you will make yourself
and any other HUD employee expeditiously available to provide
oral testimony (including but not limited to briefings,
hearings, and transcribed interviews) to the Committee on any
matter within its jurisdiction, upon the request of either the
Chairman or Ranking Member? Please answer ``yes'' or ``no.'' If
your answer is ``no,'' please explain why.
A.4. I recognize that oral testimony plays an important role in
Congress' important oversight responsibilities regarding
executive branch activities. If confirmed, I commit to brief or
testify regarding Congressional requests consistent with this
important oversight function.
Q.5. Do you believe that HUD may assert any privileges or other
legal justifications to withhold information (whether records
or oral testimony) from Congress? Please answer ``yes'' or
``no.''
A.5. My understanding is that any determination as to whether
HUD has an applicable privilege or other justification to
withhold information from Congress would be made by the Office
of General Counsel. Should I be confirmed, and should such a
question arise during my tenure, I would consult closely with
that office.
Q.6. If you answered ``yes'' to the preceding question, please
list every such privilege or other legal justification and
provide the legal basis for why you believe HUD may use such
privilege or legal justification to withhold information from
Congress.
A.6. If confirmed, I would work with the Office of General
Counsel to ensure that I am complying with any and all legal
requirements.
Q.7. In an effort to be open and transparent with Congress and
the public, will you commit not to assert any such privilege or
legal justification against Congress that you listed above? If
not, why not? If so, please identify all such privileges or
legal justifications that you will commit to not assert against
Congress.
A.7. If confirmed, I would work with the Office of General
Counsel to ensure that I am complying with any and all legal
requirements.
Q.8. Housing Experience--For each question below please provide
a clear ``yes'' or ``no'' answer, then list any responsive
experience, the date or dates, a description of the work you
personally performed, and names of individuals who supervised
this work.
Do you have any professional experience specifically in
fair housing?
A.8. In my Government career I have been proud to work on
issues in the housing finance marketplace. In my current role I
lead the Nation's consumer financial protection regulator, with
authority over large segments of the housing finance
marketplace. Among the statutes I enforce are the Equal Credit
Opportunity Act (ECOA) prohibiting discrimination in the
provision of financial services, to include housing, as well as
the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA) which helps ensure fair
treatment of homeowners and tenants. As Chair of the Federal
Financial Institutions Examination Council's (FFIEC), I led
members to focus on discrimination in the home appraisal
marketplace, and convened key governmental partners, consumer
advocates, civil rights leaders, and local leaders to better
understand their experience with these biases on a day to day
basis. Under my leadership the Bureau has also joined the
Interagency Task Force on Property Assessment Valuation Equity
(PAVE). I am fortunate to have strong relationships with the
Director of the FHFA and other banking regulators, and if
confirmed look forward to working with these stakeholders and
the Department of Justice to enforce the Fair Housing Act.
Q.9. Do you have any experience interpreting or applying the
Fair Housing Act?
A.9. I do not have experience directly applying the Fair
Housing Act as that is not one of the statutes the CFPB is
charged with administering. However, I have extensive
experience applying the ECOA, which has given me a strong
foundation to interpret the Fair Housing Act as they are
analogous in many respects.
Q.10. Have you ever counselled any persons on fair housing
issues?
A.10. I have spent my entire career in public service;
accordingly, I have not had any occasion to have any private
clients whom I might counsel on such matters.
Q.11. Have you ever counselled any housing providers on fair
housing issues?
A.11. I have spent my entire career in public service;
accordingly, I have not had any occasion to have any private
clients whom I might counsel on such matters.
Q.12. Have you ever worked directly with HUD's Office of Fair
Housing and Equal Opportunity?
A.12. In my current role, we have collaborated closely with HUD
on a range of topics to ensure Americans are protected in the
housing finance marketplace. I have prioritized that
collaboration with various Offices at HUD, including the Office
of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity. I have strongly
supported the work of the Bureau under the last Administration
to clarify the use of Special Purpose Credit programs, and
engaged FHEO around options to provide greater clarity to
regulated entities around their use.
Q.13. Barriers to Affordable Housing--In January 2021, HUD
released a report entitled ``Eliminating Regulatory Barriers to
Affordable Housing: Federal, State, Local, and Tribal
Opportunities'', which ``identifies many Federal regulations
and practices that could be revised to eliminate unnecessary
burdens to providing Americans with affordable, safe, quality
places to live, including opportunities to make sustainable
home ownership more achievable.'' \1\ Which of the report's
recommendations do you agree with?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ HUD, ``Eliminating Regulatory Barriers to Affordable Housing:
Federal, State, Local, and Tribal Opportunities'', (January 19, 2021),
available at https://www.huduser.gov/portal//portal/sites/default/
files/pdf/eliminating-regulatory-barriers-to-affordable-housing.pdf.
A.13. If confirmed, I would be concerned with housing
discrimination and violations of the Fair Housing Act. I would
defer to the Office of Policy Development and Research, Office
of Housing, and other HUD colleagues to address regulatory
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
barriers to sustainable home ownership.
Q.14. Olmstead Regulations--If confirmed, will you examine the
possibility of streamlining HUD's regulations that govern
compliance with the U.S. Supreme Court's 1999 decision in
Olmstead v. L.C.?
A.14. My understanding is that HUD has issued guidance
documents explaining how its Section 504 and other regulations
should be applied to ensure that individuals with disabilities,
including those transitioning from institutional to community
settings, have the housing opportunities they need to live in
the most integrated setting appropriate to their needs
consistent with the Supreme Court's Olmstead decision. If I am
confirmed, in conjunction with the Office of General Counsel, I
will examine these documents and take any steps necessary to
ensure that they are effective.
Q.15. Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing (AFFH)--When now-
Deputy Secretary Todman was CEO of NAHRO, NAHRO advocated for a
less burdensome version of the AFFH process than the Obama-era
rule. NAHRO said that housing agencies should not need a
consultant to comply with the rule. NAHRO also said that
entities should not have to analyze non-housing related topics
like transportation, education, or infrastructure, or analyze
locations outside of their jurisdiction.
Do you agree that a jurisdiction should not have to hire a
consultant to complete the process?
A.15. The comment you referenced was made by NAHRO on behalf of
its members. If confirmed as Assistant Secretary of FHEO, I
would work with Secretary Fudge and Deputy Secretary Todman to
implement the Fair Housing Act. As Secretary Fudge has said,
HUD will commit to giving very careful consideration to all
options relating to the AFFH process. HUD has stated that it
will be conducting a rulemaking regarding AFFH, and if
confirmed, I will closely examine any comments regarding this
issue or any other issue.
Q.16. Do you agree that to comply with AFFH requirements, a
jurisdiction should not have to complete analyses outside of
the housing arena or outside of its geographic locality?
A.16. If confirmed as Assistant Secretary of FHEO, I would work
with Secretary Fudge, Deputy Secretary Todman, and the Office
of General Counsel to implement the Fair Housing Act. As
Secretary Fudge has said, HUD will commit to giving very
careful consideration to all options relating to the AFFH
process. HUD has stated that it will be conducting a rulemaking
regarding AFFH, and if confirmed, I will closely examine any
comments regarding this issue or any other issue.
Q.17. Are there any circumstances under which HUD should use
the AFFH process to tell a city to make a particular change to
their zoning laws, to advance affordable housing?
A.17. If confirmed as Assistant Secretary of FHEO, I would work
with Secretary Fudge, Deputy Secretary Todman, and the Office
of General Counsel to implement the Fair Housing Act. As
Secretary Fudge has said, HUD will commit to giving very
careful consideration to all options relating to the AFFH
process. HUD has stated that it will be conducting a rulemaking
regarding AFFH, and if confirmed, I will closely examine any
comments regarding this issue or any other issue.
Q.18. Disparate impact--HUD recently proposed reinstating its
2013 disparate impact rule. I'm concerned that this proposal
willfully disregards the U.S. Supreme Court's decisions in
Texas Dept. of Housing and Community Affairs v. Inclusive
Communities Project, Inc., 576 U.S. 519 (2015), which
identified constitutional guardrails for disparate impact
liability. Under HUD's 2013 disparate impact rule, it seemed
that defendants were often guilty until proven innocent.
Defendants lacked the protections announced by the Supreme
Court in Inclusive Communities, like the need for a plaintiff
to prove a robust causality between the plaintiff's action and
the alleged harm. Reinstating this rule without taking
Inclusive Communities into account will invite a wave of
frivolous lawsuits against housing providers and made it
costlier to access affordable housing.
Do you acknowledge that Inclusive Communities defines
limitations for the scope of disparate impact liability?
A.18. HUD's Office of General Counsel has the primary
responsibility for interpreting the Fair Housing Act, while
FHEO has the primary responsibility for enforcing it. I
understand that HUD has issued a notice of proposed rulemaking
regarding this subject matter and has begun taking comments. If
confirmed, I would ensure that we work with the Office of
General Counsel to carefully review and respond to all comments
on Inclusive Communities and other matters before promulgating
a final regulation.
Q.19. Will you ensure that any revised rule complies with the
Supreme Court's limitations in Inclusive Communities?
A.19. If confirmed, I would ensure that we work with the Office
of General Counsel to carefully review and address comments on
Inclusive Communities and other matters before promulgating a
final regulation.
Q.20. In 2019, when now-HUD Deputy Secretary Adrianne Todman
was CEO of NAHRO, that organization filed a comment letter
arguing that HUD should exempt housing authorities from
disparate impact if a policy is ``a reasonable approach and in
the housing authority's sound discretion.'' The comment letter
quoted the Supreme Court in Inclusive Communities that
disparate impact liability should not ``second-guess . . .
approaches a housing authority should follow'' and that the
Fair Housing Act ``does not decree a particular vision of urban
development.'' Will you evaluate the possibility of including
such a safe harbor in any revisions to HUD's disparate impact
rule?
A.20. The comment period in the rulemaking you reference is
currently open, and I do not want to prejudice that process by
stating what will be included in any revisions. In accordance
with the Department's legal responsibilities under the
Administrative Procedures Act, if confirmed, I would work with
the Office of General Counsel to ensure that the Department
carefully considers any revisions to the proposed rule that
commenters may propose, including those described in this
question.
Q.21. Will you commit that any revisions to HUD's disparate
impact rule will follow the Supreme Court's 2015 dictate in
Inclusive Communities that ``disparate-impact liability [should
not] be so expansive as to inject racial considerations into
every housing decision?''
A.21. If confirmed, I would ensure that we work with the Office
of General Counsel to carefully review and address comments on
Inclusive Communities and other matters before promulgating a
final regulation.
Q.22. Will you commit that any revisions to HUD's disparate
impact rule will follow the Supreme Court's dictate in
Inclusive Communities that ``disparate impact liability must be
limited so employers [can] make . . . practical business
choices and profit-related decisions [to] sustain a vibrant and
dynamic free-enterprise system?''
A.22. If confirmed, I would ensure that we work with the Office
of General Counsel to carefully review and address comments on
Inclusive Communities and other matters before promulgating a
final regulation.
Q.23. Will you commit that any revisions to HUD's disparate
impact rule will follow the Supreme Court's dictate in
Inclusive Communities to have ``adequate safeguards'' for
defendants at the prima facie (pleading) stage so ``race [is
not] used and considered in a pervasive way [that] would almost
inexorably lead governmental or private entities to use
numerical quotas . . . ?''
A.23. If confirmed, I would ensure that we work with the Office
of General Counsel to carefully review and address comments on
Inclusive Communities and other matters before promulgating a
final regulation.
Q.24. Will you commit that any revisions to HUD's disparate
impact rule will follow the Supreme Court's dictate in
Inclusive Communities to have ``robust causality'' between the
defendant's actions and the harm to a protected class so that
defendants will not be held liable for racial disparities they
did not create?
A.24. If confirmed, I would ensure that we work with the Office
of General Counsel to carefully review and address comments on
Inclusive Communities and other matters before promulgating a
final regulation.
Q.25. Will you commit that any revisions to HUD's disparate
impact rule will follow the Supreme Court's dictate in
Inclusive Communities to focus on removing ``artificial,
arbitrary, and unnecessary barrier[s]'' to housing?
A.25. If confirmed, I would ensure that we work with the Office
of General Counsel to carefully review and address comments on
Inclusive Communities and other matters before promulgating a
final regulation.
Q.26. Fair Housing Act--Will you consult with and seek written
opinions from HUD's Office of General Counsel on the limits of
protections under the Fair Housing Act?
A.26. If confirmed, I would work in close partnership with
HUD's Office of General Counsel in enforcing the Fair Housing
Act.
Q.27. HUD Secretary-initiated complaints under the Fair Housing
Act--HUD Secretary-initiated complaints are appropriate in
matters involving significant issues that are national in scope
or when HUD is made aware of potential violations of the Fair
Housing Act and broad public interest relief is warranted.
Under what other circumstances will HUD file a Secretary-
initiated complaint?
A.27. The Fair Housing Act grants HUD the authority to file
Secretary-initiated complaints to investigate housing
practices. If confirmed, I would work with Secretary Fudge and
the Office of General Counsel to determine appropriate cases
where a Secretary-initiated complaint should be brought to
remedy housing discrimination.
Q.28. CFPB's Use of Data--The CFPB has a controversial history
of disparate impact enforcement without statutory authorization
for this contentious theory of enforcement, and without
reliable data. Because lenders are prohibited by law from
collecting information on the race of those who seek or obtain
credit, the CFPB has not had reliable data about borrowers'
race. Instead, the CFPB has guessed at borrowers' race based on
their last name and geographic area, and on that basis accused
auto finance companies of disparate impact. This notably led
Congress to overturn the CFPB's auto lending guidance in 2018.
This year, on February 10, 2021, you announced the CFPB was
preparing to publish a report to name-and-shame companies you
concluded gave racially disparate responses to consumer
complaints in the CFPB's database.
The CFPB database does not verify the accuracy of
complaints, or collect data on consumers' race. Under law,
lenders cannot themselves collect information about the race of
applicants and borrowers, meaning in most instances companies
do not know the race of borrowers when they respond to consumer
complaints. The vast majority of financial institutions (all
those under $10 billion) are not required to provide any
response to consumer complaints.
I wrote to you asking the basis for your conclusions, and
how you would verify them. Your only substantive response was
to note that third parties used CFPB complaints to research
racial disparity. The research you cited assumed individuals'
race based only on the census tracts where they resided. This
is not sufficient, or sufficiently reliable, information to
justify the Federal Government publicly accusing a private
entity of racism or of disparate impact.
Will you abandon your plan to conduct public shaming based
on unverified complaints?
A.28. I am answering these questions in my capacity as nominee
for HUD's Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity, not as
a representative of CFPB. Accordingly, I cannot answer this
question on behalf of CFPB.
Q.29. Will you commit that, if confirmed to lead HUD's Office
of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity, you will not inflict
punishments based on poor evidence, including assuming a
person's race based on his geographic location or his
geographic location and last name?
A.29. If confirmed, I will endeavor to have FHEO open and
conduct investigations and make other decisions based on
evidence that meets the applicable standards.
Q.30. Respect for Jurisdiction--The leader of an important
Government office like HUD's Office of Fair Housing and Equal
Opportunity must consider and respect the jurisdictional
boundaries Congress has set. This is why I am troubled by
instances of CFPB overreach under your leadership, and
concerned for what this would mean for your leadership of HUD's
Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity, if you were
confirmed to that role.
For example, the CFPB and the Federal Trade Commission
(FTC) jointly sent letters to large multi-State landlords. As
your staff previously confirmed to my staff on May 20, 2021,
rental landlords are not within the CFPB's jurisdiction. The
sample letter CFPB and FTC published closed with: ``Neither the
FTC nor the CFPB has determined whether you or your company is
violating the law'' and ``the FTC or CFPB may still take
action.''
This raises concerns that under your leadership the CFPB is
taking part in threatening landlords outside of its
jurisdiction, and may be using joint action with the FTC to
obscure its jurisdictional bounds. Yet, when you spoke with my
staff, you refused even to confirm or deny whether the CFPB and
FTC are engaging in joint investigations of rental landlords.
This has serious implications for your suitability to be
confirmed to an important Government office.
If this was an honest mistake, you have a responsibility to
make it right. Will you contact any landlords who received this
letter to clarify the CFPB has no jurisdiction over their
actions?
A.30. I am answering these questions in my capacity as nominee
for HUD's Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity, not as
a representative of CFPB. Accordingly, I cannot answer this
question on behalf of CFPB.
Q.31. Is the CFPB currently engaged in any investigations or
joint investigations of rental landlords? Please provide a
description of the nature of the investigations and the law
suspected to have been violated. In responding, please bear in
mind that confidential investigative information is not a
limitless category, and you have significant discretion under
the law to provide information to Congress.
A.31. I am answering these questions in my capacity as nominee
for HUD's Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity, not as
a representative of CFPB. Accordingly, I cannot answer this
question on behalf of CFPB.
Q.32. Please describe with particularity the process by which
you answered these questions for the record, including listing
every person that assisted you in answering these questions
along with a brief description of his or her assistance.
A.32. The Department of Housing and Urban Development received
these questions on August 9, 2021. I worked with Department
attorneys and through the interagency process to answer the
questions. I finalized and approved all answers to the
questions and authorized their transmission to the Committee on
August 13, 2021.
------
RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF CHAIRMAN BROWN
FROM SOLOMON J. GREENE
Q.1. Where have you excelled in past positions in attracting,
hiring, and promoting people of color in positions in your
organization? Where might there be room for improvement?
A.1. In my senior leadership positions within several
organizations, including at the Urban Institute, I have
contributed to the development and execution of robust
diversity, equity and inclusion plans, including identifying
and incorporating best practices to improve recruiting, hiring
and promotion of people of color. I have participated in and
led several hiring committees for staff at all levels--from
entry level to the most senior hires within the organization--
and in each, I have successfully recruited diverse staff,
including highly qualified people of color. Beyond recruiting
and hiring, I have contributed to and led efforts to support
diverse staff in their professional growth, including
retention, promotion and meeting professional development
goals.
I believe that HUD needs to attract, hire, retain, and grow
talented staff who represent the diversity of our Nation and
who bring the diverse perspectives and lived experiences that
are so essential to the work that HUD does. If I am confirmed,
I will ensure that open positions are well-publicized through
all the appropriate channels and would support the growth of a
more diverse team.
Q.2. What specific measures will you use to evaluate the
success of the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development
in understanding and addressing the needs of Black, Indigenous,
and people of color (BIPOC)? And, will you work with the
Secretary and senior officials to keep Congress apprised, as
appropriate, on the progress being made on these measures?
A.2. If confirmed, I look forward to working with the
Secretary, senior officials within HUD and across agencies,
Congress and a broad range of stakeholders to advance HUD's
efforts to understand and meet the housing and community
development needs of BIPOC individuals, families and
communities. In the role of Assistant Secretary for Policy
Development and Research, I would advance these efforts in
three principal ways, if confirmed. First, I would look for
opportunities to better understand the housing and community
development needs in BIPOC communities through community-
engaged research methods, rigorous research using HUD
administrative data, and collection and analysis of data
disaggregated by race and place. Second, I would ensure that
the Secretary and program offices are equipped with the best
available evidence, data, and research to support policy and
program design and implementation that addresses needs in BIPOC
communities. Third, I would work with the Secretary, Deputy
Secretary, and program offices to advance the goals and
objectives of the President's ``Executive Order on Advancing
Racial Equity and Support for Underserved Communities Through
the Federal Government'' by developing new structures and
metrics for assessing and advancing equitable outcomes in HUD
programs.
I commit to keeping all senior officials and Congress
appraised on the development of these measures and progress
being made in achieving better outcomes. I would welcome an
ongoing and data-driven conversation on HUD's progress towards
achieving greater racial equity in housing and neighborhoods.
Q.3. What is your plan for creating an inclusive working
environment for employees within your office?
A.3. I am fully committed to establishing a diverse workforce
at HUD and within the Office of Policy Development and Research
(PD&R). If confirmed, I would review HUD's current Diversity,
Equity and Inclusion (DEI) Strategic plan and work with the
Secretary and HUD's Office of Diversity and Inclusion to
provide research, leadership and data driven insights to help
improve and implement HUD's plan. If confirmed, I would support
the Secretary, Deputy Secretary, HUD's Office of Diversity and
Inclusion, HUD's Office of Departmental Equal Employment
Opportunity and the Office of Administration to advance the
Secretary's stated priorities for creating an inclusive working
environment across the Department. These include promoting
equal opportunity and identifying and eliminating any
discriminatory practices and policies; providing systematic
training of HUD employees; monitoring employment policies for
any discriminatory impact; and ensuring that senior leadership
are evaluated in terms of their commitments to diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
If confirmed, I would also make it a priority to build and
maintain an inclusive working environment in PD&R. This would
start with bolstering staff morale and dedication to DEI
efforts. I would begin immediately by working with the senior
leadership team and would continue throughout my tenure as I
evaluate what is currently in place and work with HUD and PD&R
staff to strengthen the efforts. If confirmed, I would ensure
diverse voices are a part of the decision-making process in
PD&R with respect to office initiatives, research, and efforts
at recruitment and retention of talent. Through training
sessions and meetings, I would make sure everyone understands
that we value the contributions that our employees bring to
meeting HUD's mission, and that, together, we are responsible
for maintaining a workplace that is fair, inclusive, free from
all forms of harassment and discrimination, and provides all
staff with an opportunity to grow and thrive. I would do my
best to lead by example, maintaining a leadership style that
reinforces the values of civil treatment and building teams
based on mutual respect and dignity.
------
RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF SENATOR TOOMEY
FROM SOLOMON J. GREENE
Q.1. Congressional oversight--Please provide your philosophy on
how HUD will approach and respond to Congressional information
requests (both for documentary information and oral testimony),
if you are confirmed.
A.1. I recognize that Congress plays an important oversight
role regarding executive branch activities, and I pledge to
thoughtfully consider all Congressional information requests,
recognizing the importance of transparency in Government. If
confirmed, I pledge to work through the accommodations process
to comply with Congressional requests for information to the
fullest extent consistent with the constitutional and statutory
obligations of the executive branch.
Q.2. If confirmed, do you intend to respond to information
requests differently depending on who is making the
Congressional information request (whether it's the chair of
the Congressional committee, the Ranking Member, or another
member of Congress)? Please answer ``yes'' or ``no.'' If your
answer is ``yes,'' please explain.
A.2. I recognize that Congress plays an important oversight
role regarding executive branch activities, and I pledge to
thoughtfully consider all Congressional information requests,
recognizing the importance of transparency in Government. If
confirmed, I pledge to work through the accommodations process
to comply with Congressional requests for information to the
fullest extent consistent with the constitutional and statutory
obligations of the executive branch.
Q.3. Will you commit that, if confirmed, you will timely
respond to and fully comply with all information requests from
me? Please answer ``yes'' or ``no.'' If your answer is ``no,''
please explain.
A.3. I recognize that Congress plays an important oversight
role regarding executive branch activities, and I pledge to
thoughtfully consider all Congressional information requests
including from any member, recognizing the importance of
transparency in Government. If confirmed, I pledge to work
through the accommodations process to comply with Congressional
requests for information to the fullest extent consistent with
the constitutional and statutory obligations of the executive
branch.
Q.4. Will you commit that, if confirmed, you will make yourself
and any other HUD employee expeditiously available to provide
oral testimony (including but not limited to briefings,
hearings, and transcribed interviews) to the Committee on any
matter within its jurisdiction, upon the request of either the
Chairman or Ranking Member? Please answer ``yes'' or ``no.'' If
your answer is ``no,'' please explain why.
A.4. I recognize that oral testimony plays an important role in
Congress' important oversight responsibilities regarding
executive branch activities. If confirmed, I commit to brief or
testify regarding Congressional requests consistent with this
important oversight function.
Q.5. Do you believe that HUD may assert any privileges or other
legal justifications to withhold information (whether records
or oral testimony) from Congress? Please answer ``yes'' or
``no.''
A.5. My understanding is that any determination as to whether
HUD has an applicable privilege or other justification to
withhold information from Congress would be made by the Office
of General Counsel. Should I be confirmed, and should such a
question arise during my tenure, I would consult closely with
that office.
Q.6. If you answered ``yes'' to the preceding question, please
list every such privilege or other legal justification and
provide the legal basis for why you believe HUD may use such
privilege or legal justification to withhold information from
Congress.
A.6. If confirmed, I would work with the Office of General
Counsel to ensure that I am fully complying with all legal
requirements.
Q.7. In an effort to be open and transparent with Congress and
the public, will you commit not to assert any such privilege or
legal justification against Congress that you listed above? If
not, why not? If so, please identify all such privileges or
legal justifications that you will commit to not assert against
Congress.
A.7. If confirmed, I would work with the Office of General
Counsel to ensure that I am fully complying with all legal
requirements.
Q.8. Regulatory process--How will you lead the Office of Policy
Development and Research to ensure that each proposed policy is
reviewed to determine if it is economically significant?
A.8. A Regulatory Impact Analysis (RIA) is required for any HUD
regulation or mortgagee letter that has a significant economic
impact. If confirmed, I will work to ensure that PD&R has the
appropriate staffing and support it needs to conduct rigorous
RIAs for all HUD regulations that require them. That includes
ensuring staff are using the best available data and research,
economic theory, and advice from policy experts when conducting
their analyses. I will also ensure that HUD staff seek robust
input and advice from key external stakeholders for major RIAs,
such as other Federal agencies, OIRA, and through public
comment.
Q.9. Will you develop regulatory impact analyses for all
economically significant policies?
A.9. Yes. If confirmed, I will ensure that PD&R conducts
rigorous Regulatory Impact Analyses (RIAs) for all economically
significant HUD policies, as required by Executive Order 12866.
Q.10. Affirmatively Furthering Fair Housing (AFFH)--When now-
Deputy Secretary Todman was NAHRO's CEO, NAHRO argued in a 2018
comment letter about AFFH that entities should not have to
analyze ``non-housing related topics (e.g., transportation,
education, infrastructure, etc.).'' Do you agree with this
statement? If not, under what circumstances would it be
appropriate for HUD to require such analysis?
A.10. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
AFFH requirement of the Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed,
would be to assist the Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing
and Equal Opportunity, and the Office of General Counsel in
making such decisions in an informed way based on data and
evidence.
Q.11. NAHRO argued in the same 2018 comment letter that
entities should not have to ``complete analyses of areas
outside of their own jurisdiction . . . .'' Do you agree with
this statement? If not, under what circumstances would it be
appropriate for HUD to require such analysis?
A.11. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
AFFH requirement of the Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed,
would be to assist the Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing
and Equal Opportunity, and the Office of General Counsel in
making such decisions in an informed way based on data and
evidence.
Q.12. NAHRO's 2018 AFFH comment letter also argued that housing
agencies should not have to hire a consultant to complete the
AFFH process. Do you agree with this position? If not, why?
A.12. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
AFFH requirement of the Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed,
would be to assist the Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing
and Equal Opportunity, and the Office of General Counsel in
making such decisions in an informed way based on data and
evidence.
Q.13. In addition, NAHRO's 2018 AFFH comment letter argued that
HUD should approve an AFFH plan if the entity at issue, like a
public housing agency, made a ``good faith effort to comply
with the AFFH process and submits a fair housing assessment.''
Would you support including such a safe harbor in any revisions
to HUD's AFFH rule?
A.13. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
AFFH requirement of the Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed,
would be to assist the Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing
and Equal Opportunity, and the Office of General Counsel in
making such decisions in an informed way based on data and
evidence.
Q.14. Is it ever appropriate for HUD to tell localities
precisely where to place new housing? If so, under what
circumstances?
A.14. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
such as whether it is ever appropriate for HUD to take such
action. My job, if confirmed, would be to assist the Secretary
and other relevant offices within HUD in making such decisions
in an informed way based on data and evidence. Having said
that, my understanding is that HUD does not engage in telling
localities precisely where to place new housing.
Q.15. Do you believe that any potential revisions to AFFH
should reduce the burden on localities when compared to the
2015 AFFH rule?
A.15. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
AFFH requirement of the Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed,
would be to assist the Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing
and Equal Opportunity, and the Office of General Counsel in
making such decisions in an informed way based on data and
evidence. My understanding is that HUD has stated an intention
to reduce the compliance burden to the extent possible in
formulating a revised AFFH rule. If confirmed, I would work
with the Secretary and my colleagues across HUD to ensure they
have the data and information they need to carry out these
policy choices.
Q.16. Disparate Impact--HUD recently proposed reinstating its
2013 disparate impact rule. I'm concerned that this proposal
willfully disregards the U.S. Supreme Court's decisions in
Texas Dept. of Housing and Community Affairs v. Inclusive
Communities Project, Inc., 576 U.S. 519 (2015), which
identified constitutional guardrails for disparate impact
liability. Under HUD's 2013 disparate impact rule, it seemed
that defendants were often guilty until proven innocent.
Defendants lacked the protections announced by the Supreme
Court in Inclusive Communities, like the need for a plaintiff
to prove a robust causality between the plaintiff's action and
the alleged harm. Reinstating this rule without taking
Inclusive Communities into account will invite a wave of
frivolous lawsuits against housing providers and made it
costlier to access affordable housing.
Do you acknowledge that Inclusive Communities defines
limitations for the scope of disparate impact liability?
A.16. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed, would be to assist the
Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity,
and the Office of General Counsel in making such decisions in
an informed way based on data and evidence.
Q.17. Will you ensure that any revised rule complies with the
Supreme Court's limitations in Inclusive Communities?
A.17. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed, would be to assist the
Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity,
and the Office of General Counsel in making such decisions in
an informed way based on data and evidence.
Q.18. In 2019, when now-HUD Deputy Secretary Adrianne Todman
was CEO of NAHRO, that organization filed a comment letter
arguing that HUD should exempt housing authorities from
disparate impact if a policy is ``a reasonable approach and in
the housing authority's sound discretion.'' The comment letter
quoted the Supreme Court in Inclusive Communities that
disparate impact liability should not ``second-guess . . .
approaches a housing authority should follow'' and that the
Fair Housing Act ``does not decree a particular vision of urban
development.'' As an Assistant Secretary for Policy Development
and Research, will you evaluate the possibility of including
such a safe harbor in any revisions to HUD's disparate impact
rule?
A.18. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed, would be to assist the
Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity,
and the Office of General Counsel in making such decisions in
an informed way based on data and evidence.
Q.19. Will you commit that any revisions to HUD's disparate
impact rule will follow the Supreme Court's 2015 dictate in
Inclusive Communities that ``disparate-impact liability [should
not] be so expansive as to inject racial considerations into
every housing decision?''
A.19. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed, would be to assist the
Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity,
and the Office of General Counsel in making such decisions in
an informed way based on data and evidence.
Q.20. Will you commit that any revisions to HUD's disparate
impact rule will follow the Supreme Court's dictate in
Inclusive Communities that ``disparate impact liability must be
limited so employers [can] make . . . practical business
choices and profit-related decisions [to] sustain a vibrant and
dynamic free-enterprise system?''
A.20. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed, would be to assist the
Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity,
and the Office of General Counsel in making such decisions in
an informed way based on data and evidence.
Q.21. Will you commit that any revisions to HUD's disparate
impact rule will follow the Supreme Court's dictate in
Inclusive Communities to have ``adequate safeguards'' for
defendants at the prima facie (pleading) stage so ``race [is
not] used and considered in a pervasive way [that] would almost
inexorably lead governmental or private entities to use
numerical quotas . . . ?''
A.21. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed, would be to assist the
Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity,
and the Office of General Counsel in making such decisions in
an informed way based on data and evidence.
Q.22. Will you commit that any revisions to HUD's disparate
impact rule will follow the Supreme Court's dictate in
Inclusive Communities to have ``robust causality'' between the
defendant's actions and the harm to a protected class so that
defendants will not be held liable for racial disparities they
did not create?
A.22. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed, would be to assist the
Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity,
and the Office of General Counsel in making such decisions in
an informed way based on data and evidence.
Q.23. Will you commit that any revisions to HUD's disparate
impact rule will follow the Supreme Court's dictate in
Inclusive Communities to focus on removing ``artificial,
arbitrary, and unnecessary barrier[s]'' to housing?
A.23. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make decisions
about the content of rules interpreting and implementing the
Fair Housing Act. My job, if confirmed, would be to assist the
Secretary, the Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity,
and the Office of General Counsel in making such decisions in
an informed way based on data and evidence.
Q.24. Barriers to Affordable Housing--In January 2021, HUD
released a report entitled ``Eliminating Regulatory Barriers to
Affordable Housing: Federal, State, Local, and Tribal
Opportunities'', which ``identifies many Federal regulations
and practices that could be revised to eliminate unnecessary
burdens to providing Americans with affordable, safe, quality
places to live, including opportunities to make sustainable
home ownership more achievable.'' \1\ Which of the report's
recommendations do you agree with?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ HUD, ``Eliminating Regulatory Barriers to Affordable Housing:
Federal, State, Local, and Tribal Opportunities'', (Jan. 19, 2021),
available at https://www.huduser.gov/portal//portal/sites/default/
files/pdf/eliminating-regulatory-barriers-to-affordable-housing.pdf.
A.24. I have written extensively about the need to remove
regulatory barriers to ease upward pressures on housing costs
and expand housing options and neighborhood choices for all
American families. Of the many recommendations highlighted in
this report, I believe the most impactful are within the domain
of States and local governments. If confirmed, I will work with
staff to elevate best practices and advance the field's
knowledge about the impacts of removing regulatory barriers at
the State and local levels, including but not limited to
strategies for streamlining permitting processes and easing
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
overly burdensome land use regulations.
Q.25. The January 2021 HUD report on barriers to affordable
housing described regulatory and sub-regulatory changes to
modernize Davis-Bacon. \2\ Do you support and will you work to
implement any administrative reforms to update Davis-Bacon?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\2\ Id. at 48-49.
A.25. Administering Davis-Bacon regulations is not under the
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
purview of HUD's Office of Policy Development and Research.
Q.26. HUD pilot projects--In recent years, HUD has started some
important pilot programs to study the effectiveness of Housing
Choice Vouchers and to try to improve them for beneficiaries.
Would you be open to additional pilots? If so, what kinds of
pilots?
A.26. If confirmed, I would be happy to support the Office of
Public and Indian Housing to shape a new pilot program as
directed by Congress.
Q.27. Ensuring that HUD assistance is not for a ``lifetime''--
In December 2020, HUD Secretary Marcia Fudge said that ``public
housing or low income housing should not be a lifetime, it
should be just a stopping point.'' \3\ What do you intend to do
during your time as the Assistant Secretary for Policy
Development and Research to advance that goal?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\3\ Errin Haines, `` `I Want To Be Part of Making This Work':
Marcia Fudge Talks About How She Plans To Lead HUD'', The 19th (Dec.
10, 2020), available at https://19thnews.org/2020/12/marcia-fudge-
interview-nomination-department-of-housing-and-urban-development/.
A.27. Over the years, HUD has supported a large body of
research that builds the evidence on promoting self-sufficiency
for HUD-assisted tenants. If confirmed, I intend to continue
working with this Committee, the Secretary, stakeholders, and
program offices within HUD to advance our understanding of how
public and affordable housing programs can be an effective
platform for achieving greater economic opportunity for low-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
income tenants.
Q.28. Moving to Work (MTW)--The Moving to Work (MTW)
Demonstration Program provides public housing agencies with
exemptions from many existing public housing and voucher rules
and funding flexibility with how to use Federal funds. Do you
support expanding the number of MTW jurisdictions to allow more
communities to experiment on how to make that a reality?
A.28. If confirmed, I commit to working with the Secretary and
the Office of Public and Indian Housing to advance a rigorous
research agenda on MTW that evaluates how well the initiative
is reaching the program's Congressionally mandated objectives,
which includes expanding the number of MTW jurisdictions.
Q.29. Would you consider expanding MTW to allow defined-stay
tenancy for new tenants (i.e., time limits) in exchange for a
set rent that will not increase with income?
A.29. While I cannot comment on HUD's specific plans on the MTW
expansion, if confirmed, I do commit to consulting with the MTW
Research Advisory Committee to help inform the future of the
MTW demonstration and which innovations should be tested. Any
decisions on the specifics for MTW expansion will be made by
the Secretary of HUD in consultation with the Office of Public
and Indian Housing.
Q.30. Environmental regulations--Regarding HUD's environmental
regulations that govern HUD's programs, how will you balance
the need to protect the environment with the need to limit the
cost of building new affordable housing?
A.30. If confirmed, I would use existing, Congressionally
mandated processes to review environmental regulations to take
into account both environmental protection and the
affordability and availability of housing. In many instances,
making housing safer, healthier, and more sustainable aligns
with affordability, particularly when considered over the long
term. If confirmed, I would ensure that HUD makes well-informed
decisions relying on public input, in-house expertise,
interagency feedback, and the best available data, research,
and evidence.
Q.31. Manufactured housing--The Manufactured Housing Consensus
Committee (MHCC) is a Federal Advisory Committee statutorily
authorized to develop and submit to the HUD Secretary
manufactured home construction and safety standards. The law
requires the MHCC to ``submit proposed revised standards . . .
to the [HUD] Secretary in the form of a proposed rule,
including an economic analysis.'' \4\ Accordingly, the MHCC
must have resources devoted to developing these required
economic analyses. Will you provide the resources that are
necessary for the MHCC to develop economic analyses to
accompany the construction and safety standards being
considered by the MHCC so that the standards are revised to
keep up with innovations in the market?
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\4\ 42 U.S.C. 5403(a)(4)(A)(ii).
A.31. The Office of Housing, Office of Manufactured Housing
Programs supports the MHCC and works with its members to
identify and prioritize research needs. If confirmed, I would
be happy to support the research needs of the Office of
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Housing.
Q.32. Mutual Mortgage Insurance (MMI) Fund--The FY20 Report on
the MMI Fund shows that subjecting the FY20 portfolio to the
same macroeconomic conditions faced during the housing crisis
would create losses in excess of MMI Fund capital, resulting in
a MMI Fund capital ratio of -0.63 percent, below the statutory
2 percent minimum, and requiring a bailout. Would you consider
it a failure if the Federal Housing Administration (FHA) draws
funds from the Treasury to cover losses, or put more simply,
requires a bailout?
A.32. I am not an expert on the MMI Fund. If confirmed, I would
want to learn more about this issue, and I would ensure the
Office of Housing has the necessary data and research support
it needs to make policy determinations regarding the MMI Fund.
Q.33. Do you think the MMI Fund as of FY20 has sufficient
capital reserves?
A.33. I am not an expert on the MMI Fund. If confirmed, I would
want to learn more about this issue, and I would ensure the
Office of Housing has the necessary data and research support
it needs to make policy determinations regarding the MMI Fund.
Q.34. Do you think it is inappropriate to build a capital
buffer able to withstand a shock of the kind experienced during
the 2008 housing crisis?
A.34. I am not an expert on the MMI Fund. If confirmed, I would
want to learn more about this issue, and I would ensure the
Office of Housing has the necessary data and research support
it needs to make policy determinations regarding the MMI Fund.
Q.35. Is the statutory 2 percent MMI Fund capital ratio a
sufficient buffer to protect against taxpayer losses? If not,
what do you believe is appropriate? If not the 2008 housing
crisis, what stress level scenario should FHA consider when
deciding what capital buffer is sufficient?
A.35. I am not an expert on the MMI Fund. If confirmed, I would
want to learn more about this issue, and I would ensure the
Office of Housing has the necessary data and research support
it needs to make policy determinations regarding the MMI Fund.
Q.36. Do you have plans to impose the same climate stress tests
and climate change regulatory standards on FHA's lending
portfolio as several Biden administration officials have
discussed doing for private sector market participants?
A.36. If confirmed, it would not be my role to make these
decisions.
Q.37. Eviction Moratorium--Do you think eviction moratoriums
such as those issued by the Center for Disease Control and
Prevention (CDC) are good policy? If your answered is ``yes,''
please explain why.
A.37. I defer to the CDC and the Administration on any
decisions related to the CDC eviction moratorium.
Q.38. Are any of the eviction moratoriums issued by the CDC
legal? If your answered is ``yes,'' please explain why.
A.38. I do not have a legal opinion on this matter.
Q.39. Answering questions for the record--Please describe with
particularity the process by which you answered these questions
for the record, including listing every person that assisted
you in answering these questions along with a brief description
of his or her assistance.
A.39. The Department of Housing and Urban Development received
these questions on August 9, 2021. I worked with Department
attorneys and through the interagency process to answer the
questions. I finalized and approved all answers to the
questions and authorized their transmission to the Committee on
August 13, 2021.
------
RESPONSES TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS OF
SENATOR MENENDEZ FROM SOLOMON J. GREENE
Q.1. In a report about eviction, Mr. Greene wrote that housing
counseling is an element of eviction prevention. \1\ While I
was able to include $100 million in housing counseling as part
of the American Rescue Plan, the eviction numbers show an
overwhelming need for eviction prevention help.
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\1\ https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/104148/
eviction-prevention-and-diversion-programs-early-lessons-from-the-
pandemic-0-0.pdf
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In your view, what should Congress do to strengthen housing
counseling services?
A.1. If confirmed to serve as Assistant Secretary for Policy
Development and Research at HUD, one of my central
responsibilities would be to provide the Secretary, program
offices, and Congress with the data, research and insights they
need to make evidence-based policy decisions. I am also aware
of the Secretary's commitment to strengthen HUD's housing
counseling programs and to ensure that housing counseling
services are reaching the communities that need them most. If
confirmed, I would welcome the opportunity to support the
Secretary, HUD's Office of Housing and Congress by synthesizing
the best available evidence on housing counseling programs and
supporting new research to fill knowledge gaps.
From past research that I and colleagues in the research
community have conducted, I know that housing counseling
agencies across the country are retooling their services and
approaches to address new needs and challenges facing both
renters and homeowners as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic and
its economic fallout. I am committed to learning more about the
resource and capacity needs of these agencies, evaluating the
effectiveness of housing counseling organizations in preventing
evictions, and identifying best practices and evidence-based
policies related to housing counseling.
If confirmed, I would want to learn more about work
underway within PD&R to evaluate housing counseling and other
eviction prevention. I would also want to move quickly to
propose ways to fill knowledge gaps and improve outcomes with
HUD administrative data and through PD&R's research agenda.
Additional Material Supplied for the Record
LETTERS IN SUPPORT OF THE NOMINATION OF JULIA R. GORDON
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
LETTERS IN OPPOSITION TO THE NOMINATIONS OF JULIA R. GORDON AND SOLOMON
J. GREENE
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]