[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
HOMECOMING: THE HISTORICAL ROOTS AND
CONTINUED CONTRIBUTIONS OF HBCUS
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
HIGHER EDUCATION AND
WORKFORCE INVESTMENT
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, OCTOBER 6, 2021
__________
Serial No. 117-30
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Labor
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via: edlabor.house.gov or www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
45-796 PDF WASHINGTON : 2022
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman
RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina,
JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut Ranking Member
GREGORIO KILILI CAMACHO SABLAN, JOE WILSON, South Carolina
Northern Mariana Islands GLENN THOMPSON, Pennsylvania
FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida TIM WALBERG, Michigan
SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
MARK TAKANO, California ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York
ALMA S. ADAMS, North Carolina RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia
MARK DeSAULNIER, California JIM BANKS, Indiana
DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey JAMES COMER, Kentucky
PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington RUSS FULCHER, Idaho
JOSEPH D. MORELLE, New York FRED KELLER, Pennsylvania
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina
LUCY McBATH, Georgia MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
JAHANA HAYES, Connecticut BURGESS OWENS, Utah
ANDY LEVIN, Michigan BOB GOOD, Virginia
ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan
HALEY M. STEVENS, Michigan DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico MARY E. MILLER, Illinois
MONDAIRE JONES, New York VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin
FRANK J. MRVAN, Indiana MADISON CAWTHORN, North Carolina
JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York, Vice-Chair MICHELLE STEEL, California
MARK POCAN, Wisconsin JULIA LETLOW, Louisiana
JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas Vacancy
MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey
JOHN A. YARMUTH, Kentucky
ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York
KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
Veronique Pluviose, Staff Director
Cyrus Artz, Minority Staff Director
------
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE INVESTMENT
FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida, Chairwoman
MARK TAKANO, California GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina
PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington Ranking Member
ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
TERESA LEGER FERNANDEZ, New Mexico ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York
MONDAIRE JONES, New York JIM BANKS, Indiana
KATHY E. MANNING, North Carolina JAMES COMER, Kentucky
JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York RUSS FULCHER, Idaho
MARK POCAN, Wisconsin MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas BOB GOOD, Virginia
MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan
ARIANO ESPAILLAT, New York DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
RAUL M. GRIJALVA, Arizona VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut JULIA LETLOW, Louisiana
SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina
ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia (ex officio)
(ex officio)
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on October 6, 2021.................................. 1
Statement of Members:
Wilson, Hon. Frederica S., Chairwoman, Subcommittee on Higher
Education and Workforce Investment......................... 1
Prepared statement of.................................... 4
Murphy, Hon. Gregory F., Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
Higher
Education and Workforce Investment......................... 5
Prepared statement of.................................... 6
Statement of Witnesses:
Baskerville, Lezli, President and CEO, National Association
for Equal Opportunity in Higher Education.................. 8
Prepared statement of.................................... 11
Glover, Glenda, President, Tennessee State University........ 63
Prepared statement of.................................... 65
Perry, Andre M., Senior Fellow, The Brookings Institution.... 39
Prepared statement of.................................... 41
Sailor, Angela, VP, The Edwin J. Feulner Institute, Heritage
Foundation................................................. 51
Prepared statement of.................................... 53
Additional Submissions:
Adams, Hon. Alma S., a Representative in Congress from the
State of North Carolina:
``Action Needed to Improve Participation in Education's
HBCU Capital Financing Program,'' U.S. Government
Accountability Office, June 2018....................... 107
``Blacks and STEM: Understanding the Issues,'' Dr.
William E. Spriggs, Chief Economist, NAFEO............. 186
``Achieving Financial Equity and Justice for HBCUs,'' The
Century Foundation, September 14, 2021................. 196
```If not now, then when?': HBCUs press Congress for
infrastructure funds in spending bill,'' PoliticoPro,
September 30, 2021..................................... 210
UNCF letter dated October 1, 2021........................ 213
Questions submitted for the record by:
Chairwoman Wilson
Bonamici, Hon. Suzanne, a Representative in Congress from
the State of Oregon
Response to question submitted for the record by:
Ms. Baskerville.......................................... 220
Mr. Perry................................................ 231
HOMECOMING: THE HISTORICAL ROOTS AND
CONTINUED CONTRIBUTIONS OF HBCUS
----------
Wednesday, October 6, 2021
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Education and
Workforce Investment,
Committee on Education and Labor,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommitte met, pursuant to notice, at 12:03 p.m., via
Zoom, Hon. Frederica S. Wilson (Chairwoman of the Subcommittee)
presiding.
Present: Representatives Wilson, Jayapal, Leger Fernandez,
Manning, Bowman, Espaillat, Courtney, Bonamici, Scott (ex
officio), Murphy, Grothman, Stefanik, Banks, Miller-Meeks,
McClain, Spartz, Letlow, and Foxx (ex officio).
Also present: Representatives Adams, Hayes, McBath,
Stevens, and Mfume.
Staff present: Katie Berger, Professional Staff; Jessica
Bowen, Professional Staff; Rashage Green, Director of Education
Policy; Christian Haines, General Counsel; Rasheedah Hasan,
Chief Clerk; Sheila Havenner, Director of Information
Technology; Ariel Jona, Policy Associate; Andre Lindsay, Policy
Associate; Max Moore, Staff Assistant; Mariah Mowbray, Clerk/
Special Assistant to the Staff Director; Kayla Pennebecker,
Staff Assistant; Veronique Pluviose, Staff Director; Banyon
Vassar, Deputy Director of Information Technology; Cyrus Artz,
Minority Staff Director; Michael Davis, Minority Operations
Assistant; Amy Raaf Jones, Minority Director of Education and
Human Resources Policy; David Maestas, Minority Fellow; Hannah
Matesic, Minority Director of Member Services and Coalitions;
Eli Mitchell, Minority Legislative Assistant; and Mandy
Schaumburg, Minority Chief Counsel and Deputy Director of
Education Policy.
Chairwoman Wilson. The Subcommittee on Higher Education and
Workforce Investment will come to order. Welcome everyone. I
note that a quorum is present.
I note for the Subcommittee that Ms. Adams of North
Carolina, Mrs. McBath of Georgia, Mrs. Hayes of Connecticut,
Ms. Stevens of Michigan, and Mr. Mfume of Maryland are
permitted to participate in today's hearing with the
understanding that their questions will come only after all
Members of the Subcommittee on both sides of the aisle who are
present have had an opportunity to question the witnesses.
The Subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on
``Homecoming: The Historical Roots and Continued Contributions
of HBCUs.'' This is an entirely remote hearing. Our microphones
will be kept muted as a general rule to avoid unnecessary
background noise. Members and witnesses will be responsible for
unmuting themselves when they are recognized to speak or when
they wish to seek recognition.
I also ask that Members please identify themselves before
they speak. Members should keep their cameras on while in the
proceeding. Members shall be considered present in the
proceeding when they are visible on camera, and they shall be
considered not present when they are not visible on camera. The
only exception to this is if they are experiencing technical
difficulty and inform Committee staff of such difficulty.
If any Member experiences technical difficulties during the
hearing, you should stay connected on the platform, make sure
you are muted, and use your phone to immediately call the
Committee's IT director, whose number was provided to you in
advance.
Should the Chair--that is me--experience technical
difficulty or need to step away to vote on the floor, Ms.
Bonamici, as a Member of this Subcommittee, or another majority
Member of the Subcommittee, Mr. Bowman, if she is not
available, they are hereby authorized to assume the gavel in
the Chair's absence.
This is an entirely remote hearing, and as such, the
Committee's hearing room is officially closed. Members who
choose to sit with their individual devices in the hearing room
must wear headphones to avoid feedback, echoes, and distortion
resulting from more than one person on the software platform
sitting in the same room.
Members are also expected to adhere to social distancing
and safe healthcare guidelines, including the use of masks,
hand sanitizers, and wiping down their areas both before and
after their presence in the hearing room.
In order to ensure that the Committee's five-minute rule is
adhered to, staff will be keeping track of time using the
Committee's digital timer which appears in its own thumbnail
picture. Members and witnesses are asked to wrap up promptly
when their time has expired, or I will gavel you to a close.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 8(c), opening statements are
limited to the Chair and the ranking Member. This allows us to
hear from our witnesses sooner and provides all Members with
adequate time to ask questions.
I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
Today we are meeting to explore the unique role that
historically Black colleges and universities play in expanding
access to affordable, high quality education. As a graduate of
Fisk University, I am proud to Chair this first hearing to
exclusively examine the State of these vital institutions since
2008.
And, as Chair of the Higher Education and Workforce
Investment Subcommittee, I am committed to addressing the
pressing needs of our Nation's HBCUs and their students,
including infrastructure, modernization, improved research
capabilities, financial assistance to reduce economic barriers
and eliminate food and housing insecurity, and investments to
account for decades--decades--decades of gross underfunding.
HBCUs have been at the very heart of addressing our
Nation's longstanding education and racial equity failures. For
nearly 200 years, they have provided ladders of economic and
social mobility and safe havens for generations of Black
students.
In fact, HBCUs were established for the specific purpose of
educating Black students because other institutions would not
and refused to.
The majority were founded in the wake of the Emancipation
Proclamation to serve formerly enslaved Black Americans, as was
my institution, Fisk University.
Since their inception, these institutions have survived Jim
Crow-era segregation, deferred maintenance, de jure
discrimination, and decades--decades--decades of persistent
under-investment.
Today, HBCUs remain integral to promoting the academic,
social, and economic success of the descendants of enslaved
Americans, and fostering a thriving community for an
underrepresented student population, including Black students.
Remarkably, while HBCUs account for only 3 percent of all
colleges and universities, they have graduated 80 percent of
Black judges, 70 percent of Black doctors, 50 percent of Black
teachers, and 50 percent of the Members of the congressional
Black Caucus and other Black Members of Congress.
Unfortunately, many States have chronically underfunded
HBCUs compared to other institutions, leaving them to achieve
far more with far less. This inequitable treatment dates back
to the 1800's, but it continues today.
HBCUs are still recovering from sweeping cuts to higher
education funding during the 2008 recession, which
disproportionately affected their campuses. The recent
proliferation of State performance-based funding policies that
disadvantage HBCUs is making resources disparities even worse.
Additionally, the endowments held by private HBCUs are less
than one-third the size of those held by private non-HBCUs.
To fulfill our Nation's promise of higher education for all
people, all children, Congress must provide HBCUs with the
resources and support they need to combat systematic
underfunding and discrimination.
Since March 2020, Congress has secured more than $6.5
billion in HBCU funding, including $5 billion in the COVID
relief, and $1.6 billion to forgive capital financing loans.
These historic investments provided emergency aid to help
students access essentials, like food and housing, and allowed
more than 20 HBCUs to erase students' debt. And, just last
month, our Committee advanced its portion of the Build Back
Better Act, which included over $30 billion in higher education
investments that will benefit HBCUs.
These investments are a critical step toward addressing
decades of systematic under-investment.
However, let us not forget, we recognize that we still have
a long way to go to correct historic--historic--inequities in
HBCU funding.
Thanks to these pivotal institutions, we can all benefit
from the contribution of such luminaries as Mary McLeod
Bethune, my role model; W.E.B. Du Bois; Langston Hughes; Dr.
Martin Luther King Jr.; Thurgood Marshall; Katherine Johnson;
Toni Morrison; Congressman John Lewis, who went to Fisk
University with me; and Vice President Kamala Harris.
We must preserve and protect HBCUs for the sake of the next
generation of change-makers and for those yet unborn. So I look
forward to working with my colleagues to ensure that HBCUs
receive the support that they need so that we can assure that
happens.
Additionally, in the future, we will host hearings that
showcase the contributions and accomplishments of Tribal
colleges and universities and minority-serving institutions,
which also play an important role in the higher education
landscape. I want to thank our distinguished witnesses again
for being with us today.
[The prepared statement of Chairwoman Wilson follows:]
Statement of Hon. Frederica S. Wilson, Chairwoman, Subcommittee on
Higher Education and Workforce Investment
Today, we are meeting to explore the unique role that Historically
Black Colleges and Universities play in expanding access to affordable,
high-quality education.
As a graduate of Fisk University, I am proud to Chair this first
hearing to exclusively examine the State of these vital institutions
since 2008. And as Chair of the Higher Education and Workforce
Investment Subcommittee, I am committed to addressing the pressing
needs of our Nation's HBCUs and their students, including
infrastructure modernization, improved research capabilities, financial
assistance to reduce economic barriers and eliminate food and housing
insecurity, and investments to account for decades--decades--of gross
underfunding.
HBCUs have been at the very heart of addressing our Nation's long-
standing education and racial equity failures. For nearly 200 years,
they have provided ladders of economic and social mobility and safe
havens for generations of Black students.
In fact, HBCUs were established for the specific purpose of
educating Black students because other institutions would not and
refused to. The majority were founded in the wake of the emancipation
proclamation to serve formerly enslaved Black Americans, as was my
institution, Fisk University.
Since their inception, these institutions have survived Jim Crow-
era segregation, differed maintenance, de jure discrimination, and
decades--decades--of persistent underinvestment.
Today, HBCUs remain integral to promoting the academic, social, and
economic success of the descendants of enslaved Americans and fostering
a thriving community for underrepresented student populations,
including Black students. Remarkably, while HBCUs account for only 3
percent of all colleges and universities, they have graduated 80
percent of Black judges, 70 percent of Black doctors, 50 percent of
Black teachers, and 40 percent of Black Members of Congress.
Unfortunately, many states have chronically underfunded HBCUs
compared to other institutions, leaving them to achieve far more with
far less.
This inequitable treatment dates back to the 1800's but it
continues today. HBCUs are still recovering from sweeping cuts to
higher education funding during the 2008 recession, which
disproportionally affected their campuses. The recent proliferation of
State performance-based funding policies that disadvantage HBCUs is
making resource disparities even worse.
Additionally, the endowments held by private HBCUs are less than
one-third the size of those held by private non-HBCUs.
To fulfill our Nation's promise of higher education for all
people--all children, Congress must provide HBCUs with the resources
and support they need to combat systemic underfunding and
discrimination.
Since March 2020, Congress has secured more than $6.5 billion in
HBCU funding, including $5 billion in COVID relief and $1.6 billion to
forgive capital financing loans. These historic investments provided
emergency aid to help students access essentials, like food and
housing, and allowed more than 20 HBCUs to erase students' debt. And
just last month, our committee advanced its portion of the Build Back
Better Act, which included over $30 billion in higher education
investments that will benefit HBCUs.
These investments are a critical step toward addressing decades of
systemic underinvestment. However, let us not forget, we recognize that
we still have a long way to go to correct historic inequities in HBCU
funding.
Thanks to these pivotal institutions, we can all benefit from the
contribution of such luminaries as Mary McLeod Bethune, my role model,
W.E.B. DuBois, Langston Hughes, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Thurgood
Marshall, Katherine Johnson, Toni Morrison, Congressman John Lewis, who
went to Fisk University with me, and Vice President Kamala Harris. We
must preserve and protect HBCUs for the sake of the next generation of
change-makers and for those yet unborn.
So, I look forward to working with my colleagues to ensure that
HBCUs receive the support that they need so that we can ensure that
happens.
Additionally, in the future, we will host hearings that showcase
the contributions and accomplishments of Tribal Colleges and
Universities and Minority-Serving Institutions, which also play an
important role in the higher education landscape.
I want to thank our distinguished witnesses, again, for being with
us today.
______
I now yield to the distinguished ranking Member, Dr.
Murphy, for his opening statement.
Dr. Murphy?
Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Madam Chairman. Thank you for those
excellent remarks. I want to also thank the Members of the
Committee coming to testify before us.
Historically Black colleges are an important and critical
landscape to that of higher education. For decades, these
institutions have provided Black Americans with unique
opportunities to pursue their degree and become a vital part of
the workforce.
For almost 200 years, HBCUs have embodied the true American
spirit and have overcome immeasurable challenges and hardship.
Today, over a hundred HBCUs play a vital role in their
communities and are pivotal in the education of our Nation's
future leaders.
This includes Elizabeth City State University in my Third
congressional District, which I am very proud to represent. I
will say I visited the university many times and have met their
chancellor, and I am just going to call her out here, Karrie
Dixon, who is a rock star.
She is a true gem in the world of academia, and she has led
that institution to develop smart and minds that have critical
thinking that seek out opportunity and succeed. So my hat is
off to Karrie. I will just give you a little shout-out there.
Yet the financial stress brought by COVID-19 is requiring
many institutions to take a hard look at their business
models--and HBCUs are no exception--colleges and universities
of all kinds need to begin asking the difficult questions
including those about financial accountability and viability.
One thing we must note that government intervention
oftentimes does more harm than good. This is especially true in
education. We must encourage all institutions of higher
education, including HBCUs, to become more self-reliant and
more accountable.
Reliance on the Federal Government for funding is
inherently unstable. While we fully support these institutions,
we believe that they must develop sustainable funding
mechanisms on their own to ensure their longevity. This goes
for HBCUs, as well as all other educational institutions.
As is often the case, more money is not the answer and does
not address the underlying root causes of problems that face
higher education--institutions of higher education.
These colleges and universities already receive a
tremendous amount of Federal aid. In 2019 alone, Congress
provided HBCUs, along with other minority-serving institutions,
a permanent, mandatory funding stream on top of their annual
appropriation.
Additionally, since March 2020, HBCUs and MSIs have
received an additional $6 billion in targeted direct aid on top
of their annual funding they received through the Higher
Education Act. This includes a billion in the CARES Act
funding, $1.7 billion in the Coronavirus Response and Relief
Supplementation Appropriation Act, $3 billion in American
Rescue Plan funds, as well as an additional $1.6 billion in
capital financing loan charges.
Even with this massive amount of spending, some folks--I
will tell you Senator Cory Booker and Bernie Sanders--want to
see that number increased by another $100 billion with
President Biden's Build Back agenda, which proposes an
additional $30 billion--that is with a B--in additional
spending on HBCUs. This is honestly--these additional funds are
questionably absurd.
While Federal funding may provide temporary support, we
must encourage HBCUs, just like every other institution, to be
more innovative, develop strategic business models, and work
with their private sector to help students complete their
programs and excel in the workforce.
HBCUs, just as with any other educational institution, also
cannot be exempt from accountability. Any institution receiving
tax dollars must be held to a high standard. Underperforming
HBCUs, as well as with any other educational institution,
should not be propped up by Federal dollars indefinitely when
they are not being accountable. We must assure that all
institutions better serve their students.
Easy access to taxpayer dollars creates perverse incentives
for these institutions to hike tuition costs. I have spoken
extensively on administrative bloat, and finances at HBCUs are
not exempt from this discussion.
Knowing that the Federal Government will step in and
subsidize price hikes allows institutions to then justify
indiscriminate spending on this administrative bloat and
unnecessary programs.
Taxpayer dollars are not--are meant to improve students'
educational outcomes and experiences, not the salaries of
additional staff and administrators.
We encourage HBCUs to increase and diversify their funding
streams and get their institutions on stronger financial
footing. We all want them to succeed. We all want them to
continue to educate future generations.
Thank you, Madam Chairman, I yield back.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Murphy follows:]
Statement of Hon. Gregory F. Murphy, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on
Higher Education and Workforce Investment
Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) are an
important asset to the higher education landscape. For decades, these
institutions have provided Black Americans with unique opportunities to
pursue their degree and become a vital part of the workforce.
For almost 200 years, HBCUs have embodied the true American spirit
and have overcome immeasurable challenges and hardships. Today, the
over 100 HBCUs play a vital role in their communities and are pivotal
in the education of our Nation's future leaders. This includes
Elizabeth City State University in North Carolina's 3d
congressional District, which I am proud to represent. I have visited
that wonderful University many times and consider their chancellor,
Karrie Dixon, a true gem in the world of academia. She has led that
institution to develop smart minds that will seek out opportunity and
succeed.
Yet the financial stress wrought by COVID-19 is requiring many
institutions to take a hard look at their business models and HBCUs are
no exception. Colleges and universities of all kinds need to begin
asking the difficult questions about financial accountability.
One thing we know is that government intervention often does more
harm than good; this is especially true in education. We must encourage
all institutions of higher education, including HBCUs, to become more
self-reliant.
Reliance on the Federal Government for funding is inherently
unstable. While we fully support these institutions, we believe they
must develop sustainable funding mechanisms to ensure their longevity.
This goes for HBCU's as well as other educational institutions.
As is often the case, more money is not the answer and does not
address the underlying problems facing HBCUs. These colleges and
universities already receive a tremendous amount of Federal aid. In
2019, Congress provided HBCUs, along with other Minority-serving
institutions, a permanent mandatory funding stream on top of their
annual appropriation.
Additionally, since March 2020, HBCUs and MSIs have received an
additional $6 billion in targeted, direct aid, on top of the annual
funding they receive through the Higher Education Act. This includes $1
billion in CARES Act funding, $1.7 billion in the Coronavirus Response
and Relief Supplemental Appropriations Act, $3 billion in American
Rescue Plan funds, as well as an additional $1.6 billion in capital
financing loan discharges.
Even with this massive amount of spending, some Democrats like
Senators Cory Booker and Bernie Sanders want to see that number
increased by another $100 billion while President
Biden's so-called Build Back Better agenda proposes over $30
billion in additional spending on HBCUs.
This is an absurd amount of money.
While Federal funding may provide temporary support, we must
encourage HBCUs to be more innovative, develop strategic business
models, and work with the private sector to help their
students complete their programs and excel in the workforce.
HBCUs, as with any educational institution, also cannot be exempt
from accountability. Any institution receiving tax dollars must be held
to a high standard. Underperforming HBCUs, as with any educational
institution, should not be propped up by Federal dollars indefinitely.
We need to ensure that HBCUs and all post-secondary institutions better
serve their students.
Easy access to taxpayer dollars creates perverse incentives for
these institutions to hike tuition costs. I have spoken extensively on
administrative bloat and HBCU's are not excluded from this discussion.
Knowing the Federal Government will step in and subsidize price hikes
allows institutions to then justify indiscriminate spending on
administrative bloat and unnecessary programs. Taxpayer dollars are
meant to improve students' educational outcomes and experiences, not
the salaries of staff and administrators.
We should encourage HBCUs to increase and diversify their funding
streams and get their institutions on stronger financial footing-all so
they can continue to educate future generations.
______
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, Dr. Murphy.
I will now introduce the witnesses, these amazing and
brilliant change agents. Our first witness is Dr. Lezli
Baskerville. She is the CEO of the National Association for
Equal Opportunity and Higher Education, a membership and
advocacy association for representing HBCUs and predominantly
Black institutions.
Previously Dr. Baskerville has served as appellate counsel
at the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, national
legislative counsel for the NAACP, and as an administrative
appeals judge in the District of Columbia. She is a graduate of
Howard University School of Law and Douglas College.
Welcome, Dr. Baskerville. Unmute.
STATEMENT OF LEZLI BASKERVILLE JD, PRESIDENT & CEO, NATIONAL
ASSOCIATION FOR EQUAL OPPORTUNITY IN HIGHER EDUCATION (NAFEO)
Ms. Baskerville. Thank you very much, Subcommittee
Chairwoman Wilson and to Ranking Member Murphy.
I saw earlier, but I don't see now Chairman Scott and
Ranking Woman--oh, hi there, Chairman Scott and Ranking Member
Virginia Foxx, and to the other Committee Members.
It is my distinct honor to be here today, especially to be
here on the birthday of activist Fannie Lou Hamer, and to you,
Madam Chairwoman, today, which is Jubilee Day at Fisk
University, which of course you understand and recognize and
celebrate.
On this day in 1871, nine courageous and determined Fisk
University students joined with the professor of music and the
treasurer and left the safe confines of the 40-acre campus to
go out and begin a tradition of raising money to keep the doors
of Fisk University open.
And, to this day, Fisk University is open and thrives, and
the Jubilee Singers are a revered part of the legacy and the
contemporary offerings of Fisk University.
I also am delighted to be here today on the day on which
Dr. Mae Jemison, a physician and engineer, the first African-
American woman to be admitted into NASA, was inducted into the
National Women's Hall of Fame. It is a joyous occasion. It is a
great Jubilee, and a wonderful homecoming.
I am privileged to be here to talk initially about the--
quickly about the history of HBCUs and then about their unique
relationship with America and then list three things that I
think we need to do from here.
So you've already heard quite a bit about the history of
HBCUs. HBCUs, they are unique in that they are the only
American cohort of colleges and universities that were founded
by persons who had been prevented--who were, first of all,
taken from their homeland in the most horrific conditions and
brought to America against their will with thousands dying from
the time they left their land until the time they got here.
When they got here, they were stripped of their families,
their culture, their language, all things familiar to them. And
as they went through the most unimaginable circumstances, the
one thing that they kept their mind on was education.
And so they got education in any means, but they kept their
minds, their spirits, and their hearts on education, the
importance of education to get them where they needed to be.
And so, from this horrific beginning, we began to see the
abolitionists and faith institutions establishing colleges and
universities as well as schools. We later saw, with the
introduction of the MORALE Act, the introduction into this
landscape of public colleges and universities for the express
purpose of allowing Black people to attend those schools.
Because in America, Blacks were not permitted to go to
school with White persons. There were 1862 land-grant
institutions and under the Morrill Act, Congress stepped in and
recognized--well, the courts suggested that it was unlawful to
have public institutions for White students and not Blacks.
And, if they were going to maintain them, they would have to
start institutions for Black. And they did.
But there was no mandate that they fund them equally or
equitably, and they did not. And so--but that began a long and
stony road of litigation, legislation, and administrative fiats
and executive orders that brought us to the point where we are
today.
And where we are today is we are grateful, we are grateful,
we are grateful to the U.S. Congress for the bipartisan and
bicameral support that got us--got HBCUs more dollars than we
have had, a historic investment of $6.5 billion in 2020 alone
and additional dollars just in the last month. We are grateful.
Those dollars have enabled HBCUs to begin and to continue
their long and stony road toward equitable funding. And you
heard already from the Chair and some others the types of
things our schools have been able to do.
But what we don't have now is an understanding about what
HBCUs are. HBCUs are not minority-serving institutions. They
are historically Black, born of a history unlike any other
groups of people in America.
But they are not minority-serving institutions. There is no
requirement, no race or ethnicity criterion. That is important
because, through the years, as we have developed groups of
demographic minorities and as NAFEO and others have wanted to
make sure that all under-represented students were admitted
into excellent and diverse institutions, we created programs
for them, demographic minority institutions, which HBCUs are
not, and somehow we are clumped together.
And I would like to talk during Q&A about how we decouple
HBCUs because of our special relationship with America.
America, we got the strengthening institutions provisions in
the Higher Education Act in 1986 because--I am sorry--1968 in
recognition of the----
Chairwoman Wilson. Dr. Baskerville?
Ms. Baskerville ----abhorrent treatment by America of HBCUs
and their core base through the years, 200 years and now
additional 200 years.
In recognition of that, we have executive orders, we have
legislation, we have administrative fiats, including the
current executive order that recognize the----
Chairwoman Wilson. Dr. Baskerville? Dr. Baskerville?
Ms. Baskerville ----continuing vestiges of years of de jure
discrimination. And so I am going to talk about that and see
what we can do about it, but in the limited time remaining, I
want to suggest three things that we do.
Where we are, we are at a point where----
Chairwoman Wilson. Dr. Baskerville?
Ms. Baskerville ----our institutions are stronger today
than they were yesterday. But, in spite the infusion of capital
and investments, when we talk about these, we are not talking
about HBCUs being given anything. HBCUs are the cornerstone of
America. America cannot realize her education goals, her
economic goals, her wealth goals, her health goals,
sustainability goals, or just----
Chairwoman Wilson. Dr. Baskerville? Your time is expired.
Ms. Baskerville ----talked about and because of the fact
that without HBCUs there would be no excellent, diverse working
class. The----
Ms. Foxx. Ms. Baskerville, the Chairwoman is trying to get
your attention.
Ms. Baskerville. I am sorry.
Ms. Foxx. Ms. Baskerville, the Chairwoman is trying to get
your attention.
Speak up, Frederica.
Chairwoman Wilson. Your time has expired, dear.
Ms. Baskerville. Oh, I am so sorry. Well, thank you. I look
forward to entertaining your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Baskerville follows:]
Prepared Statement of Lezli Baskerville
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Our second witness is Dr. Andre Perry. Dr. Perry is a
senior fellow with the Brookings Institution's Metropolitan
Policy Program, a scholar in residence at American University,
and a columnist for Hechinger Report.
Prior to joining Brookings, he served as an associate
professor at the University of New Orleans' Department of
Educational Leadership and Counseling Foundations.
Dr. Perry earned his Ph.D. in education policy and
leadership from the University of Maryland, and his B.A. from
Allegheny College. Welcome, Dr. Perry.
STATEMENT OF ANDRE M. PERRY Ph.D., SENIOR FELLOW, THE BROOKINGS
INSTITUTION
Mr. Perry. Yes. Good afternoon, Chairman Wilson, Ranking
Member Murphy, and distinguished Members of the Subcommittee.
Thank you for inviting me here to testify on what I believe to
be a matter of national security.
From the Industrial Revolution in the 18th and 19th
centuries to the tech boom throughout the last decade,
government investments and the innovations developed by a wide
swath of Americans helped make the United States a sustained
global power.
However, our standing as a world leader in innovation and
technology is severely at risk. The lack of recognition and
investment in Black innovators runs alongside less outlay in
the innovation economy overall.
Federal research and development investment has been in
decline for 60 years, sapping health, science, and educational
institutions, including HBCUs, of the resources needed to
introduce new products and services to the public.
The lack of R&D investment is reflected in regional and
racial imbalances that show nearly half of Federal R&D spending
flow to just six States.
In addition to these geographic disparities, there are also
stark racial gaps. Less than 1 percent of Federal R&D
expenditures went to historically Black colleges and
universities in 2019.
Likewise, my colleagues and I found that only 7.4 percent
of NSF and 6.6 percent of NIH grant awards flowed to Black and
Latino innovators, far below those groups' share of the
population.
The lack of investment is sapping wealth and opportunity
from individuals, cities, and institutions.
On top of a wealth gap that sees the average White family
possessing ten times the wealth of the average Black family, we
see similar disparities at the institutional level.
The combined endowment for every HBCU in the country
through 2019 was just over $3.9 billion. For context, New York
University alone had an endowment of $4.3 billion that year.
We cut our noses to spite our face when we don't invest in
the assets that spur economic and social mobility. The lack of
investment in HBCUs flies in the face of research that shows
these institutions punch above their weight when it comes to
developing the talent society needs.
According to a recent McKenzie Report, even though HBCUs
make up just 3 percent of the colleges and the universities in
the U.S., they account for 10 percent of all matriculating
Black students.
That same 3 percent produce 17 percent of all bachelor's
degrees and 24 percent of all STEM-related bachelor's degrees
awarded to the Nation's Black collegiates. That productivity
among HBCUs generates $14.8 billion in economic impact annually
according to a study by the College Advocacy Group, the UNCF.
HBCUs continue to produce a high share of the Nation's
Black doctors, judges, engineers, and other professionals as
Representative Wilson had mentioned. HBCUs have developed this
talent in spite of less investment and even theft.
For instance, earlier this year, a Committee established in
the Tennessee legislature determined that HBCU Tennessee State
University never received an estimated $500 million it had been
entitled from the State's funding formula.
Similarly, in Maryland, after a 13-year legal battle, the
General Assembly recently agreed to give $577 million to HBCUs
Morgan State University, Coppin State, Bowie State, as well as
the University of Maryland Eastern Shore.
We should be investing to expand the economy. We should be
investing in institutions like Bishop State Community College,
one of the Nation's 2-year HBCUs, located in Mobile, Alabama.
We should be investing in funds to support business
incubation at the HBCUs, successful models such as OHUB,
Opportunity Hub, an Atlanta-based pre-accelerator, an incubator
that works with HBCUs to support tech entrepreneurs.
As debate over what counts as infrastructure continues to
unfold, too many people ignore the fact that the real
undergirding of the 21st century infrastructure, including
upgrading power grids, sustainable transportation, renewable
energy, requires investments in STEM talent.
Therefore, if we want to jumpstart the innovation economy,
we must invest in the under-appreciated people, places, and
institutions that can yield significant growth. That means
investing in HBCUs.
Thank you and I look forward to the questions later on.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Perry follows:]
Prepared Statement of Andre M. Perry
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you, Dr. Perry.
We also know that there are some dormitories that still do
not have air conditioning as you speak about broadband, et
cetera. It is totally unacceptable.
Our third witness is Ms. Angela Sailor. Ms. Sailor is vice
president of the Edwin J. Feulner Institute at The Heritage
Foundation, where she manages the institute B. Kenneth Simon
Center for American Studies and the Center for Civil Society
and the American Dialogue.
She served as chief of staff to Heritage's president, Kay
James, in the White House Office of Public Liaison, and as
deputy chief of staff to Rod Paige at the U.S. Department of
Education.
She holds a juris doctorate from the University of Memphis,
a master's degree from the American University, and a bachelor
of arts degree from Central State University. Welcome.
STATEMENT OF ANGELA SAILOR, VICE PRESIDENT, THE EDWIN J.
FEULNER INSTITUTE, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION
Ms. Sailor. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Scott, and
Ranking Member Dr. Foxx, and thank you Subcommittee Chairwoman
Wilson and Subcommittee Ranking Member Dr. Murphy for the
opportunity to testify today.
Again, my name is Angela Sailor, and I am the vice
president of the Edwin J. Feulner Institute at The Heritage
Foundation.
Ladies and gentlemen, we can make no mistake, the
contributions of historically Black colleges and universities
to America are invaluable.
According to the United Negro College Fund, graduates of
our historic institutions hold fully a quarter of all science,
technology, engineering, mathematic degrees earned by African
Americans. Moreover, 12.5 percent of all Black CEOs and half of
all the Nation's Black lawyers are HBCU grads, and I am so
proud to say I am one of them.
Like other institutions of higher learning, HBCUs have
worked to weather the pandemic-blown storm by forging new
partnerships with both the public and private sectors. The
Higher Education Emergency Relief Fund, as part of the CARES
Act, provided more than $1 billion in grants for HBCUs and
other MSIs suffering hardship due to COVID-19.
Prior to the pandemic, President Trump signed into law the
FUTURE Act, making permanent $255 million in mandatory funding
for HBCUs and other MSIs. As a result, over the past several
years, HBCUs have seen a historic infusion of additional
Federal funding.
As Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. reminds us, we are not makers
of history, but we are made by history. One of the great
lessons American leaders have learned from COVID-19 is that
crises creep like a thief in the night and our best defense
toward budget constraints is prudence, ingenuity, and
innovation.
As the mounting national debt becomes more and more
unsustainable, the consequence of massive spending threatens to
stifle future opportunities for the next generation. As
additional Federal spending continues to be our reality,
colleges must take the opportunity to leverage resources to
their greatest and highest use.
In such turbulent times, colleges have an opportunity to
prioritize programming and to reinvest resources in a way that
advance their core mission.
The National Center for Education Statistics notes that
total revenue for HBCUs during the 2017-2018 academic year was
$8.7 billion, with $1.9 billion coming from student tuition and
fees.
Compared to the Harvard's of the world, the HBCU revenue
model relies heavily on tuition and financial aid. Very few
have cultivated large endowments, and this has led some to
doubt the ability of HBCUs to sustain best-in-class leadership
and compete with other colleges for top talent.
The Department of Education's Capital Financing Program
provides more than $500 million in loans to HBCUs as a
temporary bridge as a solution, giving schools flexibility to
diversify their revenue streams, expand private sector
partnerships, and realign their program offerings to more
closely mirror the Nation's projected workforce needs.
HBCUs, like many colleges nationwide, can expand their
sustainability through private sector collaboration, and
Congress has a role to play by advancing policies that drive
down costs and allow innovation to flourish.
It is time for the Federal policymakers to fundamentally
rethink how higher education is financed and delivered and move
toward policies that will lower cost and increase flexibility
for students.
For both HBCUs and non-HBCUs alike, the introduction of
innovative policies such as income share accounts--agreements
and accreditation reform, can put higher education on a path to
meeting the needs of industry and academia while being good
stewards of student and taxpayer resources for generations to
come.
Limiting the growth of Federal subsidies will help colleges
focus on their core academic missions while helping students
leave school with less debt. Today's 101 HBCUs are adversity-
hardened and time-tested.
As an HBCU graduate, I believe our invaluable institutions
will thrive, for the ultimate measure of our Nation's vitality
and strength is the ability of its people and its institutions
to prevail in times of challenge and controversy. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Sailor follows:]
Prepared Statement of Angela Sailor
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so, so much. And
let us remember the research that is so important when we deal
with our HBCUs that is missing.
And now we will hear from Dr. Glenda Glover. She is the
president of Tennessee State University, an HBCU, which brings
it right home in Nashville, Tennessee. She is also the
international president of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority,
Incorporated. That is my sorority, and that is the sorority of
our Vice President, Kamala Harris.
Previously, Dr. Glover served as dean of the College of
Business at Jackson State University, an HBCU in Jackson,
Mississippi. She served as J.D.--I am sorry--she received her
J.D. from Georgetown University. She is also a recipient of a
Ph.D. in business from George Washington University. She earned
an MBA from Clark Atlanta University and a B.A. from Tennessee
State University.
Welcome, Dr. Glover.
STATEMENT OF GLENDA GLOVER, PRESIDENT, TENNESSEE STATE
UNIVERSITY
Ms. Glover. Thank you. Chairman Wilson, Chair Scott,
Ranking Member Murphy, Ranking Member Foxx, and Members of the
Committee, thank you for allowing this important dialog on the
record regarding HBCUs.
I am Glenda Glover, and I serve as president of Tennessee
State University in Nashville.
Tennessee State is a comprehensive, urban land-grant HBCU
with over 8,000 students, offering degrees at the bachelor,
master, and doctorate levels.
Our country cannot reach its goals without strong,
sustainable HBCUs, goals necessary to close the education gap,
the health gap, the wealth, and economic gaps.
HBCUs have changed the college landscape, made enormous
contributions, and achieved in spite of continuous challenges
and limited resources. For example, as has been said, HBCUs
account for just 3 percent of colleges in this country but
produce 22 percent of bachelor degrees earned by African
Americans, 25 percent of African Americans with STEM degrees,
50 percent of African-American school teachers, 50 percent of
African-American lawyers, 50 percent of African-American
doctors, and 3 percent of African-American judges. Twenty-four
percent of Ph.D. s earned each year by African Americans are
conferred by HBCUs.
Almost 50 percent of the Members of the congressional Black
Caucus attended HBCUs, and the Vice President of these United
States graduated from an HBCU.
These achievements were earned despite the fact that
funding has been disproportionate, and endowments were 7
percent less than that of White institutions. HBCUs have
consistently had to do more with less. So we are pleased to
present this value proposition of HBCUs and ascribe their
funding needs.
The Build Back Better Act is a game-changer. It reflects
the administration's understanding of the importance of
investing in HBCUs, as HBCUs continue their role in resolving
many of the challenges that threaten the general welfare and
prosperity of our country.
We want to thank Congress for your support last year as you
made emergency funds, stimulus funds available for higher
education, including HBCUs. Those funds assisted our students
when they had to return to their homes and could not do their
online assignments because many had limited to no connectivity
or no technology devices.
So, with the stimulus funding, we were able to provide
technology devices and assist students financially and upgrade
the technology infrastructure to support online learning.
And HBCU capital financing program was extraordinary and
eliminated debt of all these HBCUs that had the debt, and we
thank you. So today we are actually continuing that financial
support of HBCUs, not just on an emergency basis but to invest
in HBCUs to help them to become more competitive and
sustainable, fully benefiting the national economy.
HBCUs were founded over 185 years ago to educate newly
freed slaves, and HBCUs remain at the frontlines of educating
students who need access to the transformative power of higher
education, despite discrimination in funding, diverted funding,
and inadequate facilities.
So we are here asking for your assistance. We need funds in
several areas, funds in areas such as deferred maintenance,
infrastructure, technology, new academic programs, and
research.
Finally, we are often asked the question and others ponder
it, why do we still need HBCUs? That is the wrong question. The
question should be, how did these colleges and universities
have so little and produce so much, and how can their model be
used by other institutions to advance our great country? That
is the question.
At HBCUs, we see Black excellence at its best. We ask you
to strengthen HBCUs, support the students they serve, and close
the gaps by making much-needed investments in HBCUs that
address historic discrimination and underfunding and put HBCUs
on equal footing with majority institutions.
We are asking Congress to right this wrong. It is never too
late to do what is right. Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Glover follows:]
Prepared Statement of Glenda Glover
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much, and I would be remiss
if I didn't also note that Dr. Adams, the other hat lady, is a
Member of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority also and is proud to have
her national president here with us today.
Under Committee Rule 9(a), we will now question witnesses
under the five-minute rule. I will be recognizing Subcommittee
Members in seniority order.
Again, to ensure that the Members' five-minute rule is
adhered to, staff will be keeping track of time, and a timer
will sound when time has expired. Please be attentive--please
be attentive--to the time. Wrap up when your time is over and
remute your microphone.
As Chairwoman, I now recognize myself for five minutes.
Dr. Glover, can you elaborate on the systemic underfunding
and the impact that continues at Tennessee State University?
The report showed that the State owed you $544 million due to
historical underfunding.
Ms. Glover. Thank you. Tennessee State is a land-grant
institution. There are two in Tennessee: Tennessee State, and
the University of Tennessee. These institutions receive funding
to focus on teaching and practical agriculture and science and
engineering.
When I became president of TSU, we looked at the funds that
had not been distributed to TSU. We looked at funding that the
other land grant had received and wondered why there was no
match for Tennessee State University.
Additionally, there is funding required by--that the State
had a ruling that Tennessee State would receive one-third of
the amount of funds that the other institution received. So
there was nothing in the budget for Tennessee State. Nothing.
There was--for 50 years, we went back about 50 years, there was
nothing in the budget to even account for it.
This speaks of a need for more oversight and other areas we
can get to. But the underfunding was calculated back from the
late 1950's to present. And the number came to from $150
million to $544 million.
We are currently working with the State legislature. We are
currently working with the Committee that was put together for
last fall to ensure that TSU enters into conversations about
the money, the arrears that is owed, and we made some success
on that.
We don't know--I can't really say where we are at this
particular point in time with the dollar amounts that is owed
to TSU, but we do believe we are making some progress.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much.
And I suppose, Dr. Baskerville, that is true of other
underfunded HBCUs. Is there more that Congress and the
administration can do, Dr. Baskerville, to help these HBCUs as
they compete for critical funds? They graduate with
substantially higher levels of debt than their peers, and we
want them, HBCUs, to have research dollars and scholarships.
What can Congress do? What should Congress do?
Ms. Baskerville. Yes, Madam Chair. I will answer the
question, but I would like to set it up in the context that
what we have with Tennessee State University is not unique. In
fact, it is part of a pattern and practice of de jure
discrimination against public historically Black colleges,
particularly the 1890 land-grant institutions.
In a report by the association for public land-grant
institutions found that from 2010 to 2012, 61 percent of 100 of
the 1890 land-grant institutions did not receive 100 percent of
the one-to-one match funds from their respective States for
extension and research funding.
Go back to the special relationship. When Congress
established the 1862 land-grant institutions, as with the 1890
land-grant institutions, as with the 1862, they required a
State match for the dollars being invested in the 1890's.
And so, between 2010 and 2012, 61 percent of the 1890's
land grant did not receive their dollars. Between 2010 and
2012, 18 land-grant universities did not receive more than $31
million in extension funding due to States not meeting their
one-to-one match requirements.
From 2010 to 2012, 1890 land-grant universities did not
receive more than $25 million in research funding, due to
States not meeting their one-to-one match.
Chairwoman Wilson. Dr. Baskerville, let me ask you this. In
response to 2018 survey conducted by the Government
Accountability Office, responding to, HBCUs reported that
nearly half of their building spaces on average is a need of
repair and replacement. What can we do to fix that?
Ms. Baskerville. We need the U.S. Congress to recognize
these institutions as central to the progress of America.
In terms of research, we have 11 research 2 institutions,
research institutions that are high research intensive, that if
they were invested in commensurate with their return on
investment, they would have additional infrastructures, money
for laboratory, money for additional centers of excellence,
additional dollars to utilize both corporate and government
laboratories, and to do a number of things that will position
them to move from research 1--research 2 to research 1
institutions.
In fact, NAFEO recommends that you consider an EPSCoR type
of relationship for the R2 institutions, where the scientific
departments and agencies would pool their resources and work
with these 11 intently to move them from research 2 to research
1 so that they can sit in the driver's seat in developing the
types of scientific inventions, and particularly at this time
in the health field, that can help to move America from where
we are today to where we need to be.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much.
I now recognize Ranking Member Dr. Murphy for his
questions. Dr. Murphy?
Mr. Murphy. Yes, thank you, Madam Chairman, and again,
thank you to all of the witnesses coming today. Excellent
testimony.
And I will just say again a bit of a shout-out to Karrie
Dixon at Elizabeth State University because she has done just a
tremendous job at Elizabeth City State University. They have a
tremendous aviation program, and she has taken that place from
very, very tough times to be an absolute gem within our
district.
So let me ask a couple questions if we will.
Ms. Sailor, if you don't mind, you noted in your testimony
that Obama-era gainful employment rule, that the rule was
particularly harmful to the HBCU community. Would you mind
fleshing that out a little bit for me and discussing that?
Ms. Sailor. Sure. And thank you for the question. You know,
as we look at balancing the needs of students and the
institutions and being able to protect both and you look at the
gainful employment regulation, if you will, Trump was concerned
and many were concerned that harm could come to HBCUs and other
institutions of higher learning across the country where the
ability to not define, if you will, the requirements of
connectivity between the program and actually the outcome that
the student would receive in terms of gainful employment.
And so that rule in terms of focusing on disclosure is very
important to begin to relax that and create another flexibility
for HBCUs and institutions of higher learning not to be harmed.
Mr. Murphy. OK.
Ms. Sailor. And so, again, you know, we want to make sure
that students are going to engage in programs that are going to
lead to employment, but at the same time, there has to be a
balancing of where that accountability comes and where the
institutions themselves can also be protected in their programs
that they offer.
Mr. Murphy. All right. Well, I appreciate that, Ms. Sailor,
and I will tell you, I think it has been a mantra that has
happened--I am in medicine, I have been a surgeon for 30
years--so much in medicine now is accountability.
And I don't think our institutions of higher education are
by any means exempt from that, and I think there needs to be a
lot more accountability at all institutions, not just
specifically HBCUs but all institutions because I think the
faucet of Federal money has led to some of that just not being
accountable.
So, you know, I think outcomes are important. I think we
have to look at what institutions are doing with their money,
and are they giving the students the education that they
deserve, and are they giving them what they are paying for? Are
we getting the taxpayers what they are doing? So I think this
is, again, across every institution.
So as the Committee looks to reauthorize the Higher
Education Act, do you have any specific suggestions as to what
the accountability framework should look like?
Ms. Sailor. Yes. You know, there has to always be
transparency. I think that will continue to be an essential
factor in making sure that the relationship between the
student, the taxpayer, and the institution is going to render
us what we are looking for.
I mean, ultimately, we want to make sure that students are
going to graduate and be employed, and we want to make sure
that they are going to be able to realize their dreams and
contribute to society. And we see in 2020 that just 6 in 10
students completed a 4-year bachelor's degree in 6 years.
And so, as we are looking at these reforms of
accountability, we need to continue to make sure that the
mission of what the school is trying to do, in terms of the
academic onset of the educational experience to the workplace,
is met.
And, you know, it is critically important as well to
continue to allow the voices of industry to be at the table, in
terms of looking at those reforms and how they need to work,
and the collaboration between the institutions, toward making
sure that the students are equipped to do the jobs that will be
available.
Mr. Murphy. Right. Thank you. I appreciate the comments.
I just think, again, putting the private sector in, because
that is where most jobs are--and they demand accountability--
that we actually have to ask higher education institutions, all
of them, HBCUs and everybody else, to put out a product that is
worthy of the money instilled in it.
So I thank you all again.
Thank you so much, Madam Chairman. I am going to yield
back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much for your
questioning. And as far as accountability, we will followup on
that and agree.
Ms. Manning of North Carolina.
Ms. Manning. Thank you, Madam Chair.
And I want to thank all of our witnesses for being with us
today to talk about this very important topic.
I have three wonderful HBCUs in my district, including
North Carolina A&T, which I believe is now the largest and has
had a lot of accolades this year, including Olympic athletes
who recently competed in the Olympics, and we have one gold
medal winner. So I just want to shout out to them.
Dr. Perry, you mentioned in your testimony the important
role that HBCUs play in educating Black students in the STEM
field. Can you talk about the impact that Federal investments
have had on the ability of HBCUs to enhance STEM education and
support the innovation in the economy?
Mr. Perry. Yes. The reason why I talked about the
importance of graduates in the STEM field is because it is
clear that the economy is moving toward one in which you have
to be highly skilled, particularly in science, technology,
engineering, and math.
In spite of a lack of investment in those institutions,
HBCUs are producing a higher percentage. Now, when we are
talking about performance and accountability, there are lots of
predominantly White institutions that are not holding up their
fair share of the bargain.
And so at the end of the day, we as an economy, if it is
going to grow, it is going to grow because we graduate STEM
majors at a higher percentage. And right now many institutions
aren't doing that, but HBCUs are.
And, in addition, I just want to be clear that HBCUs have
always produced in this area, but they have been devalued. Less
patents are given out to STEM graduates. Less investment into
the graduates.
And so we could do so much more if we saw investments in
those institutions and the graduates they produce.
Ms. Manning. Thank you.
I want to do a followup on that, because as I meet with
business leaders across the country, and this is a moment in
time when many businesses are looking to diversify their
workforces, I hear a lot of them talk about the fact that they
can't find people in the STEM fields and they can't find
people, particularly in engineering.
We graduate lots of great people in the STEM fields and in
engineering. What can we do to promote those graduates and make
sure that employers are looking at our great HBCUs for the
kinds of employees they say they are having trouble finding?
Mr. Perry. Yes. One of the things, and I don't know if you
can hold people accountable to this, but when employers say
that they can't find Black workers in the STEM field, and they
are particularly in the South, they clearly don't have a
relationship with HBCUs.
In places like Alabama, North Carolina, several HBCUs
produce the graduates, but they don't have the connections to
industry. And so if they are not going to reach out, we do need
to build some type of bridge, and it can include social
interaction.
South by Southwest. You have OHUB, which I mentioned, that
takes Black graduates or students from HBCUs to South by
Southwest to essentially introduce them to funders, companies,
and the sort, to make those kind of introductions, because we
know so much of investment is about relationships.
And so if employers aren't going to just recognize the
talent, then we have to somehow make those graduates more
visible. So I have been really high on creating initiatives
that essentially display the talent. The Bayou Classic, for
instance, the historic game between Southern and Grambling,
they have a pitch competition there in which the winner from an
HBCU gets a certain amount of investment funds.
We need to do just more of that. But let's be clear. There
are a lot of people who say that they can't find Black workers,
and that is just a reflection of bias in labor markets, which
don't make much sense.
Ms. Manning. Thank you, sir.
Dr. Glover, a quick question for you. We are starting to
see mega-donors who are noticing HBCUs as places where they
want to make donations. How do we expand upon this to attract
more donations to HBCUs?
Ms. Glover. I think it starts with having the public-
private partnerships and expanding to the corporate community,
to ensure that there are relationships with the corporate
community. Relationships bring about more gifts and
contributions.
And then when schools are doing things in the community and
in the corporate world, in the industrial world, in government,
when you are doing things that will show that you are
competitive, and you have students that are competitive.
It is about student success. It is about teachers and
faculty and staff coming together to ensure student success.
And you ensure student success by putting them in the workplace
when they are competent, putting the right processes in place
to ensure that they are successful, enhance their future.
So you make these partnerships, and you continue to meet
and make more corporate and noncorporate relationships.
Ms. Manning. Thank you so much. I thank the witnesses.
And I will yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much, Ms. Manning.
And now, Mr. Grothman of Wisconsin.
Mr. Grothman. Sure. I don't have any historic universities
like this in my district, but nevertheless, there are a variety
of issues I think are a concern across all of academia. And I
will start with Mrs. Sailor.
I notice in the materials that we have that there are
shocking numbers of student loan debt for students who have
attended these institutions. We also have the same problem in a
variety of institutions in Wisconsin.
Some administrators feel that what we ought to do is we
ought to allow the universities themselves to have to sign off
on student loan debt. They feel that young people, being what
young people are, they sometimes take out student loan debt in
excess of what they actually need.
And do you think it would be a good idea, Mrs. Sailor, or
maybe one of the other witnesses later on, would you like the
ability, do you think these universities would like the ability
to say, ``Hey, wait a minute, you don't need $5,000 in debt
this semester, you can make do with $3,000 of debt''? Do you
think that would be a good idea?
Mrs. Sailor. Thank you for the question.
As young people are coming into the workplace and becoming
independent, being able to wrap our arms around them as they
are making critical decisions that are going to impact their
lives and the lives of the next generation, I think providing
support and counsel to students as they are deciding to take
out a loan and understanding what that is going to mean.
What is that going to mean in terms of what you have got to
pay back and how it has to be paid. What does that mean in
terms of the earnings that you are----
Mr. Grothman. Would you like the--do you think the
universities would like the ability to say, ``No, you cannot
take out a loan of that size, we don't think it is in your best
interest''?
Mrs. Sailor. I think universities would like to be in a
collaboration with students and have the opportunity to give
them counsel toward that end, yes.
Mr. Grothman. OK. Then I will ask Dr. Glover.
Would you like the ability to have to sign off before a
student took out a loan?
Ms. Glover. There are various pots of money from which
students choose to finance their education, and some have more
options than others. There are some that have no other option
but to get a loan. They have to----
Mr. Grothman. OK. The question is, though, the size of the
loan.
Ms. Glover. No, I understand the question quite well. Your
question is totally understood. But I am saying to you, if a
student has no other choice but to get a loan, it is up to us
to help them manage the loan, to make sure they don't borrow
too much money, not money for things they don't need but money
for education.
So if they don't live on the right side of the track and
don't sit around the table and have someone say, ``I am going
to cash in my CD to give you money to go to school,'' we don't
have that in our population many times.
So those students have to borrow money to go to school. And
I applaud them for getting funds to go to school. I would
rather they borrow money and go to college than not go to
college.
But here is where we come in. We will assist them and say,
``You only need to borrow enough to cover this. You don't need
to borrow enough for your cell phone bill each month, et
cetera, et cetera.''
Mr. Grothman. Would you like the ability to tell a student,
``You cannot take that amount out''?
Mrs. Sailor. We do that. We do that at HBCUs. We will say
to them, ``You actually don't need a loan. We are going to help
you find another source of funds.'' And we do. We help them
find scholarships from other places. If they cannot get a
scholarship, we have alumni to come to their rescue.
Loans are the last resort in many, many cases, and that is
what we do most of the time.
Mr. Grothman. Thank you.
Now, I notice nationwide we have a problem. I am looking at
an article in the Washington Examiner: ``Democratic professors
outnumber Republicans 9 to 1 at top colleges.''
Recently, I talked to a professor at a private college in
Wisconsin. He felt less than 2 percent of the professors at his
college were for Donald Trump. I think diversity of thought is
very important in universities everywhere.
I will ask Mrs. Sailor, do you feel that where you went to
college there was a diversity of thought, or were the
professors tilting toward one way ideologically or the other?
Could this be a problem in some of these universities?
Mrs. Sailor. Well, we see studies across the Nation, and
there is a great tension about diversity of thought in
academia, and it is a growing concern. And as we have seen the
onset of cancel culture coming from both the left and the
right, across the spectrum in terms of issues that can be
shared, I do think there is a growing concern about diversity
of thought.
Mr. Grothman. OK. When you went to college, did you find a
lot of or any Republican-leaning professors, or could you tell
an ideological sway one way or the other?
Mrs. Sailor. I had a very unique experience in terms of
talking to others, and I felt that I had a pretty balanced
experience there. My professors who were in the field of
economics and dealing with kind of finances tended to lean more
conservative, Republican, if you will.
But in the humanities, I found at times--I wasn't sure--
one's political leaning back and forth, because I found that I
got a balance of being able to read literature that espoused
different viewpoints.
And in my own right, I always sought to try to compare
ideologies across the spectrum in terms of my studies in order
to keep myself in a position to be able to define my viewpoint
for myself.
Mr. Grothman. Thank you.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you.
Let me remind the witnesses and the Members, please, in
order for us to remain online, we have a block of time. There
are other committees meeting at the same time as we are.
When you expand your time, you hurt our ability to
broadcast to the thousands of people who are interested in
HBCUs, and we have thousands on this call now. So let's be
mindful of the time that has been allotted to us.
Thank you so much.
And now we are going to hear from Ms. Jayapal, who is our
progressive champion from Washington.
Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much, Madam Chair. Really
appreciate that.
And thank you to all of you for being here with us today.
I am so proud to support debt-free degrees for all
students, but especially those at HBCUs, because these
institutions are engines of success for the communities they
serve and for our Nation. They prepare Black students to
succeed, and many are the first in their families to go to
college.
But we do face a lack of equitable funding that burdens
that mission. And as we consider investments, we can make to
address all the challenges faced by students at HBCUs,
addressing disparities in funding has to be part of that
strategy if we are going to really improve affordability and
success.
And I want to thank my colleague Alma Adams for being
somebody who is constantly talking about the importance of
this.
Dr. Perry, in the work that you talk about--in your work
you talk about how expected student loan debt is a barrier to
low-income students and students of color attending college,
especially for students attending HBCUs. My bill, the College
for All Act, addresses that challenge by helping low-and
middle-income HBCU students attend tuition-free and by doubling
the Pell grant.
What impact would investments in free college and the Pell
grant have on low-income students' ability to afford and
complete college, especially at HBCUs?
Mr. Perry. Yes. My colleague Carl Romer and I did a study
on how canceling debt will close the racial wealth gap. And we
see that the more debt you cancel, the more you close the
longstanding racial wealth divide in this country.
In addition to closing the wealth gap, you are essentially
creating professionals in high-growth industries, which
accelerates the economy even further.
And so the more we can graduate folks from the
underappreciated assets in our communities, meaning if you just
add water it will grow, so to speak, and HBCUs are among those
underappreciated assets, and so many of them are not receiving
the investment, and we could get more growth, close racial
wealth gaps, and improve the community overall.
And I will just add this point to address one of the other
comments that was made.
We really do need a true public option in terms of free
college. We talk about holding systems accountable. We actually
have that amongst State colleges in a sense of the spikes in
tuition have not occurred at the same level at the State
colleges, because State legislatures essentially guard against
that. And so let's not conflate all institutions.
Now, certainly, I also agree we should be rewarding
institutions that graduate Black students at a higher rate. And
so not to say, hey, only public institutions should get free
college, but we should also incentivize those colleges who
graduate Black students at a higher rate.
Ms. Jayapal. Thank you. Thank you so much. And we actually
looked at that in Washington State. Because of the State
legislature's investments, we were able to keep the rising cost
of college lower, but it is still extremely unaffordable for
too many.
President Glover, in my district our State and cities
invest in tuition-free programs, like Seattle Promise, which
serves more than 60 percent of low-income students of color
annually, and a third are first generation. It is successful
exactly for the reason we were just talking about. It uses
State and local funds, but in addition to improve wraparound
services like counseling and mentorship.
How does a State's failure to provide equitable investment
in your school impact its ability to provide wraparound
services for students most in need?
Ms. Glover. Well, it has a profound effect, because without
the funding, the services are not readily available without the
proper funding. And so we are trying now to let students know
about the various services, let them take part in the various
services.
Wraparound services are very important. Housing. What is a
quiet fact is that many schools have homeless populations. For
Tennessee State, we make sure that students have housing year-
round, because we know the population we serve.
And then the other services, the counseling services. This
COVID crisis has brought about a higher level of depression
among students. And students are eager to tell you now, ``I
need some counseling. I need some assistance.'' Those days are
over when it was taboo to talk about the fact that you needed
to speak with someone because you are having some issues.
We have telecounseling 24/7, not just Tennessee State, but
many HBCUs have stepped up to the plate and begun to put these
wraparound services together for students so students can be
enhanced throughout their entire academic career.
Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much. My time has expired, Madam
Chair. Conscious of your words, I yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you very much.
And now, Mr. Banks.
Mr. Banks. Thank you.
Last Congress, I introduced the Pell Grant Flexibility Act,
which would allow Pell grants to be used for technical
education.
Unfortunately, my Democrat colleagues on this Committee
refused to bring it up for a vote even though it had bipartisan
support.
Now we are finding out that one of the main threats to
HBCUs is their inability to remain competitive with both
traditional 4-year colleges and trade schools.
According to Andrew Kelly of the American Enterprise
Institute, only 14 percent of children from the bottom third of
the income distribution curve will complete 4-year college
degrees, and many of these students will go on to complete some
form of technical education.
Mrs. Sailor, what effect would offering technical education
have on HBCUs in terms of student enrollment and
competitiveness?
Mrs. Sailor. Thank you.
I think what is critically important in the days that we
live in is to be able to offer people options and choices so
that they can tailor for themselves and customize for
themselves the professional upscaling that they want in the
areas that they desire to go.
And, again, you can't find a parent who is looking to be in
debt, and you can't find a student who is looking to be in
debt, but people are looking for options and ways to get to the
finish line in the way that will best fit their needs.
And so I think, again, options are critical, and the more
options and the more awareness that people have about them and
where those options lead them, I think is nothing but an asset
to being able to make wise decisions.
Mr. Banks. Can you talk for a minute about how Pell grant
flexibility would help specifically do that, provide more
options for HBCUs to provide technical education?
Mrs. Sailor. Well, yes. I mean, it would give the financial
support for the low-income student who is from the underserved
community that option as a way to matriculate through the
system.
Some people know directly what they want to be. They don't
want to be a generalist, per se. They have got their eye on a
specific job that they are going for. And that will create yet
another opportunity for them to chart a course that may be a
better course for their life or a better choice for their life
and where they want to go.
Mr. Banks. Thank you.
One of the numerous crises plaguing higher education is the
disappearance of men. According to The Wall Street Journal, men
now make up only 40 percent of students enrolled in traditional
4-year universities.
However, this discrepancy is even more stark at HBCUs.
According to the National Center for Education Statistics,
female enrollment at HBCUs has been higher than male enrollment
every year since 1976. The percentage of female enrollment at
HBCUs increased from 53 percent in 1976 to 63 percent in 2019,
which is higher than the national average.
Mrs. Sailor, what is the root cause of the drastic gender
disparity at HBCUs? And what effect does this have on minority
communities as a whole?
Mrs. Sailor. Well, I think when you look at the Black male
population across the board, and we look at high prison rates,
and we look at the distribution of opportunities against
females and males, this is a challenge for us as a Nation
across the board.
So I think it is hard to take that conversation and just
narrow it down to just specifically historically Black colleges
and universities, but across the Nation we have an issue with
what is happening to the Black male in our country and the
leadership opportunity there.
Mr. Banks. Can you talk at all about what HBCUs are doing
to address the gender gap?
Mrs. Sailor. Well, I mean, as I look and talk to leaders in
the HBCU community, there are major efforts in terms of trying
to do recruitment and looking at partnerships, even before
students graduate from high school, in terms of creating
interest and opportunities there.
You see a lot of this happening with the ROTC programs and
the Junior ROTC programs toward getting interest of males into
higher education and on the HBCU campuses toward that end,
which also creates opportunities for funding other education as
they begin to serve our Nation.
Mr. Banks. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much.
Such an important topic, and that is why we, Congress, have
established the Commission on the Social Status of Black Men
and Boys. And on this Committee today, there are three Members,
Mr. Bowman, myself, and Mrs. McBath.
We have found that on our HBCU campuses, 70 percent of the
student body are female students. In Atlanta, only Spelman
College exceeds that, and they are an all-girls college.
In fact, I worked with Tennessee State this last year,
school year, to help increase their Black male population by
sending them 12 Black boys to Tennessee State from
Jacksonville, Florida, and Miami-Dade County, Florida, to help
incentivize other Black males to attend college. And you have
got to do that from beginning in the third grade.
So thank you so much for that. That is right down my alley.
And our next Member, it is down his alley, too. We are both
former principals.
Mr. Bowman of New York.
Mr. Bowman. Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I rarely, if
ever, disagree with you, but I am going to slightly disagree
that we need to begin the college-bound process in pre-K with
our young men, just to plant the seeds before they even start
kindergarten.
First, I want to thank our witnesses for being here today
and to express a special thank you to the HBCU Caucus founder
and co-Chair, Congresswoman Adams, as well as to Chairwoman
Wilson, for their continued relentless advocacy and leadership
over the years and in making this hearing happen today.
While there are no HBCUs in my district, where I represent
parts of Westchester and the Bronx--by the way, we may need to
talk about that, Chairwoman. All the HBCUs are in the South. I
am up here in the Northeast. We could get one or two in the
Northeast. Well, there is one, Medgar Evers in Brooklyn. We
need one in the Bronx.
I do have constituents who attend HBCUs out of State. It
important to ensure that opportunity remains an option for
generations of Black students to come.
I have a question about STEM education for Dr. Baskerville.
Dr. Baskerville, thank you so much for your testimony
today. I would like to discuss STEM investments in HBCUs.
In addition to sitting on this Committee, I serve as the
Subcommittee Chair on Energy for the Science, Space, and
Technology Committee.
On both committees, it is clear to me we need to do more in
STEM education, not only in higher education but in K to 12 as
well. Studies have shown that the percentage of Black students
earning STEM bachelor's degrees nationwide has declined in
recent years, but we also know that HBCUs play an outsized role
in awarding STEM degrees to Black students.
So my question is, what do HBCUs do differently from non-
HBCUs in this regard? And what lessons can other colleges and
universities learn from HBCUs about effective STEM education
and exposure to STEM career opportunities?
Ms. Baskerville. Thank you so very, very much, Congressman
Bowman. I would like to say that we are delighted that you do
have predominantly Black institutions that NAFEO worked to
help. And Medgar Evers is one, LaGuardia is one. I think three
or four of the CUNY colleges are PBIs, and they align with
NAFEO, that also has that subset.
Relative to STEM, HBCUs are doing a number of things, as
you suggest, to begin pre-K and work your way up. One of the
things that NAFEO did for 10 years, in a partnership with NTIA,
National Telecommunications Information Administration, was to
shape and then execute and evaluate Techno Scholars.
All the data suggested that boys are interested in
technology and if you keep them busy on whatever are the
current technological devices, they will excel.
So we identified six HBCUs. We were able to get them
technology devices, and we partnered them with young men at the
HBCUs who were mentors. So they had a mentor that looked like
them, came from their background and so forth, and they had the
devices.
Their graduation rates went up substantially as compared
with the Black men that were in their class that were not
Techno Scholars. So they got their lessons on the technology,
and as rewards they were given games, programs, that they
enjoyed playing.
There is another group, Quality Education for Minorities,
that Dr. Ivory Toldson was the last president. But they are
also looking for innovative ways to engage in the pipeline with
the TRIO Programs.
TRIO in the last few years, with tremendous support from
Chairman Scott and others on this Committee, started a program,
Upward Bound STEM, recognizing that in that tenth grade, if you
focus on STEM, you can work.
So we are doing many things. There is a lot more that we
can do. But now we are evaluating, and hopefully we will have a
report on which ones seem to be most promising.
Mr. Bowman. Thank you so much for that response.
As a middle school principal, I was one of the only middle
schools in the Bronx to offer a computer science program to our
kids. And that is something, as we think about K to 12 schools,
I think we could do a lot more of, in partnership with HBCUs.
Thank you so much, Madam Chair. I yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much, Mr.
Bowman. And I would be remiss if I did not recognize Chairman
Scott and his work with Black boys and men also today.
And now our next Member, Mrs. Miller-Meeks of Iowa.
Mrs. Miller-Meeks. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Ranking Member Foxx.
And thank you to all of our panelists for this very
interesting discussion. I have had the opportunity to visit
several HBCUs, not in my State but elsewhere, and have always
been impressed with the work that they do.
And this wasn't originally where I was going to go with my
questioning, but I am going to followup on something that
Representative Banks had asked earlier.
I am a 24-year military veteran, left home at 16, the
fourth of eight kids, in order to find a way to get to medical
school.
And so I thought it was interesting, one of the comments
that you had made earlier, Mrs. Sailor, in your testimony, both
in your testimony, in your written testimony, and then your
comments to Representative Banks, in trying to get young men,
young Black men into college, and to address the gender gap and
gender disparity.
But you mentioned the HBCUs' collaboration with Reserve
Officer Training Corps, or ROTC, on campuses to cultivate
future military officers. And that said, 25 percent of the
HBCUs currently participate in a ROTC program.
Are there specific barriers preventing more HBCUs from
collaboration? I think this would be a win-win both for our
country, for Black men, and for HBCUs.
Mrs. Sailor. Thank you for the question. And I have to just
say this as well: My husband and I have two children at West
Point.
Mrs. Miller-Meeks. Oh, my gosh.
Mrs. Sailor. And we just have a special place in our heart
for that type of training. I have a son, and I can't imagine
wanting him in a more secure discipline program, if you will,
as he is becoming a young man.
But as we have at The Heritage Foundation been working with
ROTC programs on HBCU campuses, one of the things that we
notice in terms of conversation about some of the barriers is
it requires funding.
And we see that collaboration has come into play as a way
to overcome that barrier, where you have got, like in the State
of Virginia, where Hampton University and others collaborate
together and bring those university systems together to use
those resources collectively.
We even see that happening at institutions like Harvard and
MIT, where they collaborate those resources together in order
to give those students the best experience that they can have
and the best exposures that they can have. And so I think it is
super important as we continue to look at this as a model.
There is another instance here, in terms of looking at
making sure that the workplace development piece is synched and
aligned with the need. And one of the areas where we have
talked with HBCUs is that cybersecurity area is not as strong
as it could be, in terms of looking at military preparedness.
And there are several of the institutions that are looking at
how to funnel and channel and collaborate to make those areas
of study stronger.
Mrs. Miller-Meeks. And it is interesting you are bringing
that up, because Representative Bowman just talked about STEM
education, and I think Mr. Perry did in his testimony as well,
and the success in HBCUs in graduating in science degrees and
further science degrees and computer technological.
So, I mean, certainly that is a value to the military. It
is a value to their education and would certainly facilitate
careers in technology, in computer, in cybersecurity, which we
know from recent events is critically important to our Nation.
So is there something that we can do in Congress to help
facilitate that collaboration?
Mrs. Sailor. Yes. I think as we make this more and more of
a priority, as we talk about policy and the need for military
preparedness, I think it is especially important, because it
puts HBCUs again in a conversation about being an American
asset that is being bolstered toward competitiveness and
military preparedness.
And so I think that from a public relations standpoint and
from a programmatic standpoint, it is essential for us to
continue these conversations and look at policies that expand
opportunities there.
Mrs. Miller-Meeks. Thank you so much for your testimony and
those of our witnesses.
And Madam Chair, I yield back my time.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much.
And now my friend from New York, Mr. Espaillat.
Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Chairwoman. Thank you so much for
allowing me to ask some of the questions.
My first question is, how has the lack of funding, the
disparity in funding at the HBCUs contributed to any issues
with student retention? Anybody that would like to answer that.
Dr. Glenda Glover?
Ms. Glover. Well, the various needs of HBCUs expand across
several categories, and most of those categories affect whether
or not students attend your university and sometimes whether
they return.
The needs are so great in various areas. The infrastructure
and deferred maintenance, that is a huge one for HBCUs and
schools. Some of the schools are crumbling. The infrastructure
needs extensive work.
I have spoken to other college presidents. The deferred
maintenance can be as high as $100 million, $200 million. It is
$300 million on Tennessee State's campus. That is how much, how
deferred maintenance. That means where you learn and where you
live. That is where that becomes so important. When it rains
outside, many times it rains inside also.
So infrastructure is one.
The technology. Technology. Students understand they live
in the technological age, and they want to have the various
types of technology, including advanced computing capabilities
and networks.
So the funding that has been denied over the years, the
systemic historical diverted funding that HBCUs have not
received, that makes a difference when students are looking at
schools.
And then the programs. Funding. The lack of funding has
resulted in various programs not being able to be offered at
various universities.
And then, of course, the research. I know many students
don't really say no to a school because of research, but they
definitely will look at the other areas on the campus as a
whole and the offers that are there. So that hurts and helps
with recruiting and retention.
Mr. Espaillat. But even with these disadvantages, HBCUs and
the Hispanic-serving institutions, as well as other minority-
serving institutions, have contributed to closing the racial
and ethnic wealth gap in higher education.
Do you have any data of the important role that these
institutions have played in closing the wealth gap by the
opportunities that even within these disadvantages are
presented to students?
Ms. Glover. Well, even with the lack of funding, HBCUs have
excelled. And we won't have to look at the stats anymore, but
if you take a student who would have gone to college and who
didn't go for whatever reason, we stopped the student. They
didn't have the funding. Lack of funding prevents students from
going to school. There is no scholarship money available. There
are other pots of funding that are not available.
And so then you become one of the statistics. If you make--
I think BLS, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, says a student
graduating from high school makes, on average, $37,000 a year,
and on college I think it was $61,000. They work 40 years. If
you look at that difference of $24,000 or so a year for 40
years, that is almost a million dollars over 40 years that
student has not earned, has not made, because of not going to
college because of lack of funding.
Mr. Perry. May I add, could I respond just quickly to that?
Let's also remember that Black graduates, collegiate graduates,
have a much lower wealth profile than their White counterparts,
earn less money. And so our economic mobility is throttled by
discrimination in other areas.
And so we can't ignore that part. Black people are going to
school and taking on more debt, and it is not, the education is
not playing out the same way it does for their White
counterparts.
Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Just let me say in closing that in New York State I was
involved in a lawsuit that established disparities in funding,
regional disparities in funding in the New York City public
school system. It was a campaign for fiscal equity. And moneys
eventually were allocated by the courts, both for capital
improvement of the schools as well as operational.
I think that there are a lot of similarities in the years
of disparities in funding given to HBCUs and other minority-
serving institutions.
Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much.
And now, Mrs. McClain of Michigan, welcome.
Mrs. McClain. Thank you, Madam Chair.
And thank you to all of our guests today. I really
appreciate the efforts in what you are doing.
I think we all share the same thought process in terms of,
if we can get our younger generation, our youth, educated and
provide them an opportunity to get a good, well-paying job,
that just solves so many problems down the road, and it really
begins to give them a sense of pride. And I think you see that
passed down from generation to generation.
So I applaud all of our efforts.
I have a few clarifying questions. This is my first time on
this Committee, so I want to make sure I understand it.
We had talked earlier about endowments. And if we are
producing at such a higher rate from these colleges, why do you
think our endowments are suffering?
Mr. Perry. Well, endowments are created not only from
individual contributions, but through other Federal and State
investments. And so overall, in a nutshell, HBCUs take on,
enroll many lower-wealth individuals. So even the graduates
that go on are in a job market that throttles their wealth even
further.
And so, from an individual perspective, they receive less
contribution. From a Federal contribution----
Mrs. McClain. OK. I think I understand. In the interest of
time, I don't mean to be rude or cut you off.
So, for example, I graduated from Northwood University.
Northwood University, which is a private college which has a
really good endowment fund, they would get Federal moneys?
Mr. Perry. No, no. OK. Those are just one of the ways. But
also remember there are lots of--there is also--yes, there is
lots of--so endowments that--I hate to put a damper on this--
were created from cotton money, alcohol money.
Look, colleges and universities participated----
Mrs. McClain. Or alumni. I understand. That helps me. I
appreciate it, sir. I was just--I was trying--I am trying to
connect the dots, because I do think the most important thing
that we can give our youth today is a job.
I mean when you think about it, a job provides pride, sense
of purpose. It breaks the cycle. It allows people to pay taxes.
It allows people to give back. I mean, I am in agreement.
I am asking again, perhaps our ladder maybe do you think is
maybe on the wrong wall for a moment? And I go back to what Mr.
Bowman said, is it seems like the workforce, the consumer of
the product, the student, is wanting more skilled trades. And I
can only speak for my State, really, and my district. I mean, I
was out this morning and they are begging for people in the
skilled trades industry.
Is there some sort of marriage that we can do between the
college and the skilled trades? And I think you have talked a
little bit about that, but I think that is--I think that really
is critical.
And then, because we talk about having free college tuition
and whatnot, and let's remember nothing is free. The professors
surely aren't teaching for free. And at the end of the day,
somebody has to pay those professors, and it is typically the
taxpayers' money that Congress is appropriating.
So I am just wondering are we truly providing--and this
isn't a knock on anyone, I don't want it to come across that
way--are we truly providing a product that the community wants?
And anyone can answer that.
Because people in my community don't need another LS&A
degree. They need somebody who knows how to weld. I am just
wondering.
Ms. Baskerville. I would like to respond to that.
The HBCU community has 17 2-year institutions, community,
and technical colleges, that, as with their 4-year
counterparts, they are punching above their weight. They are
graduating disproportionate percentages of persons who are
trained in health and health professions and health
paraprofessionals. They are in technology. They are in all the
growth and high-needs areas.
Mrs. McClain. So you are producing welders. You are
producing----
Ms. Baskerville. We are producing welders.
Mrs. McClain. OK.
Ms. Baskerville. And in many cases, in J.F. Drake, for
example, their classes are ranking above their counterparts in
passing the licensure exams that are required once they get
there.
Mrs. McClain. So journeymen, apprenticeships, all that?
Ms. Baskerville. Yes. Those types of things, yes.
Mrs. McClain. OK. It is exciting. It is very exciting.
Ms. Baskerville. I think I agree with your general concept
that we have got to have jobs, but I think that you have got to
have people prepared for the workforce, people with strong
character, and people committed to service.
So I think that is one of the things that HBCUs provide
that makes them unique. Yes, we absolutely are preparing folks
for the workforce by building character and encouraging for
their service.
Mrs. McClain. Well, that comes with discipline, showing up
on time. And I think you would also agree with me that it is
critical for us to teach our children how to think, not what to
think, so they can come up with these critical thinking skills
on their own.
So, with that, I yield back my time. Thank you very much.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you.
Ms. Bonamici of Oregon.
Ms. Bonamici. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Before I ask my questions, I want to speak to the Gainful
Employment Rule, which was brought up in the witnesses'
testimony and answers.
Students attend career education programs with the
expectation that they are going to receive a quality experience
that is going to lead them to gainful employment. But many of
those career education programs, particularly those at for-
profit institutions, are not preparing students for gainful
employment in their chosen field, leaving them with debt they
can't pay.
So to protect students and taxpayers, the Obama
administration implemented the Gainful Employment Rule, and
that was so students would not take on debt for higher
education that did not lead to good jobs.
And that rule worked. Data showed that institutions were
starting to reduce tuition cost and phaseout those low-quality
programs because of the rule. Yet, Secretary DeVos completely
rescinded the rule, to the detriment of students and taxpayers.
And contrary to the testimony given today, HBCUs were not
negatively impacted by the Gainful Employment Rule because of
their student demographics. According to data from the
Department of Education, the percentage of students of color at
an institution does not have a meaningful impact on the
institution's debt-to-earnings ratio.
So what the Gainful Employment regulation did was protect
students, particularly low-income students, and students of
color, from overpriced, low-quality programs, particularly at
the predatory for-profit colleges.
So I am glad the Biden administration has indicated they
are going to re-regulate and bring back the Gainful Employment
Rule, and I look forward to working with the Committee and the
administration on this important issue.
Now, turning to the questions. We know, it has been
established, HBCUs are tremendously important to our Nation's
higher education system.
And yet, as Chair Wilson described and several of our
witnesses confirmed, they have been historically underfunded,
with endowments lagging behind non-HBCUs by as much as 70
percent. HBCUs are less likely to be able to buffer lower
Federal and State funding levels.
And I want to note that the most important role of the
Federal Government in education and, therefore, our role as
policymakers, is to advance equity. We know HBCUs have played a
critical role in providing higher education opportunities for
centuries, long before President Johnson emphasized equity of
opportunity with the important Higher Education Act in the mid
091960's.
So today our institutions of higher education, especially
HBCUs, need resources so they can continue to serve as these
engines of economic mobility for the students they serve. But,
unfortunately, not all of my colleagues agree with me, and some
have stated that they oppose additional Federal investments in
HBCUs.
So, Dr. Perry, what would you say to someone who, despite
the facts we have laid out today and established in the
testimony, continues to argue that we do not need to increase
investments in HBCUs and other under-resourced institutions?
Mr. Perry. Well, I just find it hypocritical that many of
the people who say they are into expanding the economy are
against investing in HBCUs in the areas particularly they are
strong at. We are making the argument that for the workforce as
a whole we need STEM graduates. We should be investing in those
institutions that produce STEM graduates at a higher level.
The other side to this is that there are many institutions
that do not graduate Black students well. And I can easily make
the argument the reason why you see an increase in HBCUs is
because the PWIs of the world are not doing their job.
Ms. Bonamici. I appreciate it. And, Dr. Perry, I don't mean
to cut you off, but I really want to try to get in another
question to President Glover.
We know that Tennessee State University is doing a lot to
help students who arrive on campus in need of additional
support, perhaps students who have attended under-resourced K-
12 schools.
So what are you doing to make sure the faculty and staff
are prepared to meet the needs of those students who have been
through underfunded schools in the K-12 system.
And also if you could add, just in the remaining time, how
would the enactment of the Build Back Better legislation, with
policies like the extension of the Child Tax Credit, affordable
childcare, and universal preschool for 3-and 4-year-olds,
affect children who may be future HBCU students?
Ms. Glover. And I can just tell you, say that we are doing
quite a bit at Tennessee State for students who come to us who
are not prepared, if that is your question, who are not
prepared.
[Inaudible] education assuming that the students are going
to get the right knowledge, to provide the competent
communication skills and focus on educating them throughout
their college career.
And so I kind of forgot. It was a pretty long question. I
kind of forgot.
Ms. Bonamici. I am sorry.
The Build Back Better legislation includes policies like
affordable childcare, extension of the Child Tax Credit, and
universal preschool. How would that affect future HBCU
students?
Ms. Glover. Oh, it affects them in a positive way. The
Build Back Better Act overall has shown that they have a real
appreciation of what HBCUs provide and the nature of the
students who attend HBCUs. And so I think each one of those
elements, each has a positive thrust to it that will assist
HBCUs as they grow and develop.
Ms. Bonamici. Thank you so much, Dr. Glover.
And I apologize for going over, Madam Chair. I yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. This is a wild hearing. OK.
And next, Dr. Foxx.
Ms. Foxx. Yes, ma'am. Yes, Madam Chair. I am prepared to
ask my question. Thank you very much.
Mrs. Sailor, according to data from the Office of Federal
Student Aid, the cohort default rate for HBCUs was 13.4 percent
in Fiscal Year 2018, the highest among all institutional
sectors and nearly twice that of the national average for
schools. I will note these default rates are higher than
proprietary institutions, which Democrats continually demonize
as failing their students.
I know that students tend to rely on Federal aid at a
higher rate, but that should not impact their ability to pay
back these loans after school, especially since today we have
heard so much about the high percentages of professional people
who graduate from HBCUs.
So could you comment on that, please?
Mrs. Sailor. Yes, Dr. Foxx.
As we look at the demographics of the majority of students
attending HBCUs, we see that there are a lot of people who are
first-time college attendees, if you will, to graduation.
And I think this issue goes back to what happens at the
moment that one is accepting a loan. And I think it is
critically important that we look at ways to make sure that the
financial literacy upscale component is happening at the same
time.
Dr. Glover spoke to that in terms of what she is doing at
her university in order to help students make those wise
decisions.
I think we have got young people who are trying to make
decisions for themselves. They don't always have the same
consultation from family Members who have gone through a
similar experience, and so therefore they are trailblazing.
Ms. Foxx. Could I followup on that a little bit?
So should Congress do more to hold schools with poor
student outcomes accountable, both HBCUs and non-HBCUs alike?
Mrs. Sailor. I think that Congress should be working with
and looking at policies that encourage both HBCUs and non-HBCUs
to provide that financial literacy and counseling as young
people are trying to make decisions that are beyond where they
can see at the moment, to give additional support.
Ms. Foxx. Mrs. Sailor, institutions of higher education
received a significant addition of Federal support in response
to the challenges posed by COVID-19. HBCUs and MSIs received
nearly $6 billion in targeted and additional direct support.
This influx of taxpayer dollars was both unprecedented in
its size and the speed at which it was delivered, which makes
oversight of such funds more critical than ever to ensure
taxpayer dollars are being used as intended, to help students.
Do you have any indication, since this Committee has had no
oversight on how this money is being spent, do you have any
indication as to how HBCUs have used their COVID relief funds,
and have some used them more effectively than others?
And I only have a little over a minute, so I need a quick
answer.
Mrs. Sailor. OK. Yes. I mean, what we see across the board
is HBCUs are trying to meet needs of the students who are in
dire need during this moment that we are having as a Nation. We
see that Dillard and Howard and North Carolina A&T, for
example, are a few institutions that have created safe funds
and grants from private donors as well to help pay tuition and
fees.
We also see other universities, like Wilberforce
University, bolstering private scholarship.
And so those additional funds have I think helped give
enough cushion in order to look at diversifying other avenues
to bring money into those institutions.
Ms. Foxx. Well, over the past year we have also seen
several reports of HBCUs clearing the account balances of their
students using COVID relief funding.
Do you think this is a smart way to teach students fiscal
responsibility? And what was the justification for this use?
How was the determination made which borrowers to cover?
We need to know more about whether this is an effective use
of taxpayer dollars or is this simply transfer of wealth.
Mrs. Sailor. Yes. Dr. Foxx, I think we as a Nation
experienced a global pandemic, something no one was expecting,
and I don't think we got it all right.
And I think, as the law allowed for flexibility for HBCUs
to look at what kind of processes they were going to use, I
think we have got to be able to go back and insist on the
transparency of how that was interacting and interfacing so
that as we move forward we can make sure that the models that
worked are going to be continued to be used and those things
that didn't work so well will be corrected.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you very much. I yield back, Madam Chair.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much.
And now the Chair of the full Committee, the distinguished
Dr. Scott of Virginia.
Mr. Scott. Thank you, Madam Chair, and certainly I want to
thank you for convening this hearing, and we want to thank our
witnesses for being with us today.
My family is very closely associated with HBCUs. My father,
mother, two brothers, and a sister all attended HBCUs,
including Howard, Hampton, Fisk, Virginia State, Morehouse, and
Spelman. My great grandfather, Nicholas Roberts, after whom I
am named, was the interim president at Shaw. So I am very
closely associated with HBCUs.
Let me first make a quick comment about the comment made by
the gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Banks, about what had sounded
like short-term Pell and that we hadn't taken up his bill.
Probably the reason we haven't taken it up is because every
higher education bill and every workforce development bill that
we have considered in the last 2 or 3 years has included a
provision for short-term Pell so that his views are well taken,
and we will look forward to working with him on that.
Dr. Glover, thank you for your testimony. As several have
indicated, in the last couple of years, there has been
unprecedented support for HBCUs. Can you compare the funding
that Tennessee State got in the last year and a half, compared
to what it usually gets historically, and what you are able to
do with the money?
Ms. Glover. Sure. Tennessee State received funds in three
categories last year. The first Higher Education Emergency
Relief Funds, the CARES Act, half went to students and half
went to the university. But we gave most--quite a significant
number amount to [inaudible] that was $23 million.
Then we had the second round of the Relief Supplemental
Act, and we got $33 million. And then the American Rescue Plan,
$58 million. So a total of $115 million came in on an emergency
basis.
So that was used to provide directly to students and
personal assistance to students. I think that number was $11
million. And then there was tuition assistance to students
impacted by the pandemic, direct tuition student assistance.
That was $20 million, almost $21 million. The scholarships were
$22 million. The emergency housing was over $2 million.
The technical enhancements to online, hybrid learning
because students had to leave and go home all of a sudden with
no technology devices, limited to no connectivity to broadband,
so we had to provide technology for the students.
They had cell phones, but, you know, cell phones only go so
far. You can go into Zoom and online learning in that way, but
you can't do the papers and modeling. Cell phones won't go far
enough. We provided technology devices. So, so much for the
equipment, we had to get the PPE, so--and then for this fall,
this semester and next semester, there is another $40 million
we are still spending encumbered.
So we have actually spent all the money. It has either been
spent in total or has all been encumbered. And we are most
appreciative of our funds. I have to say, this was emergency
funding, and that is what made it so appreciative, because we
were in a State of emergency.
Mr. Scott. It sounds like you almost got as much from COVID
relief bills as you got from the State of Tennessee in the last
year and a half.
Ms. Glover. Indeed.
Mr. Scott. Thank you.
Ms. Glover. It was kind of broad.
Mr. Scott. I am going to ask you a question to respond on
the record, and that is, what can we do to actually increase
endowments? I don't have much time to get a coherent answer to
that question, but if you can provide that for the record, I
would appreciate it because that is one thing that has been
commented on and we ought to be able to do something about
that.
And, finally, Ms. Baskerville, do you have any comments
about the present status of HBCU litigation in terms of whether
or not these consent decrees are still in effect and whether
States are in compliance.
Ms. Baskerville. The consent decrees are still in effect,
and they are still in compliance. With the Maryland case, we
now have litigation, and the results of that, that suggest what
the States must prove. So what we found in Maryland case was
that, yes, there are still vestiges of discrimination, among
the many are infrastructure and also duplication.
But what it also did was put out a roadmap so that the
other 18 public institutions that are in States where they
maintain a dual and unequal higher education system will know
what to do. We can now take this and use it with the other
decrees.
But I do believe that we need to work to make sure that the
Office of Civil Rights has a process in place that doesn't
force you to be in litigation or pre-litigation for 40 years.
We need at some point to intervene. Once the Office of Civil
Rights find that they are in violation and they put in place
the decree, if they do not comply, they need to withhold funds.
That appears to be the only thing they will respond to.
Mr. Scott. Well, thank you, and I would, just for the
record, let you know that the Chair, Representative Wilson, and
I, just recently wrote the Office of Civil Rights and the
Department of Education, asking them about the status of this
litigation and what they are doing about States that are not in
compliance. So we are following up on that, and we appreciate
your testimony.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much.
And now Ms. Letlow of Louisiana. Welcome, Ms. Letlow.
Ms. Letlow. Thank you and thank you to all the witnesses
for taking the time to testify before the Committee today.
Louisiana is home to several distinguished historically Black
colleges and universities. HBCUs in my State are nationally
recognized for their academic programs and contributions to
research.
I am especially proud that one of these outstanding HBCUs
is located in Louisiana's Fifth congressional District.
Grambling State University has been educating students in north
Louisiana since 1901. The university offers many strong degree
programs, but the school is especially known for its nursing,
computer science, and teacher education majors. And I can't
forget to mention their world-famed Tiger Marching Band.
This summer, I had the opportunity to visit Grambling's
campus to learn about their academic programs and priorities. I
was especially impressed with their commitment to recruiting
Black male students to pursue careers as educators at
elementary and secondary schools.
Nationally, less than 2 percent of the public
schoolteachers are Black males while over 50 percent of the
public-school students are students of color. Grambling is
seeking to address this discrepancy by launching a targeted
leadership program to increase the number of Black male
students earning a teaching degree.
It is encouraging to see higher education institutions find
innovative ways to address workforce issues, and I am proud to
support Grambling's efforts.
I would like to now direct my question to Ms. Sailor.
Throughout your testimony, you highlight the importance for
HBCUs to leverage public-private partnerships. I believe there
is immense value in establishing these partnerships, what are
some examples of successful collaboration between HBCUs and the
private sector? Are there barriers preventing HBCUs from
leveraging these partnerships, and if so, what can be done to
remove them?
Ms. Sailor. Yes. Thank you for your question. I actually
worked on, many years ago, a proposal, and we almost got it
done with NASCAR and HBCUs. And I will tell you what was
successful in that, is, in terms of being able to connect the
resources, the innovation in terms of giving the students the
hands-on experience of being able to work in mechanics, if you
will, and looking at the engineering degree.
And what is essential, I think, as you look at success in
terms of the connectivity of both the private and the public
sector coming together to try to execute toward an incredible
outcome is the ability, as those projects are coming into
fruition, that they don't get cutoff when an administration
changes, if you will.
And so I think where we are able to keep a certain amount
of continuity where you have got the three parts coming
together, it is going to be very helpful in being able to not
only measure the long-term outcomes of what can happen, but
also being able to get to a place of scaling those incredible
models out in terms of its capacity to really return on the
investment that is made from the partnerships.
Ms. Letlow. That is a wonderful example, Ms. Sailor. Thank
you so much, and I yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much, Ms. Letlow. And now
let me just let you know that what you said was so amazing, how
you started your testimony. That is why the congressional Black
Caucus has established the Commission on the Social Status of
Black Men and Boys, and we agree with you about the teaching
shortage, the college attendance, everything that impacts Black
boys. Thank you so much for your testimony.
And now Ms. Adams of North Carolina.
Ms. Adams. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for your work
on HBCUs. Thank you for holding today's long-awaited, much-
needed hearing on HBCUs.
And, to each of our esteemed witnesses, thank you for being
here today.
I do ask unanimous consent to enter into the record the
following items: A 2018 Government Accountability Office report
that speaks to the improved participation in the education of
HBCUs' Capital Financing Program; a 2021 report published by
The Century Foundation entitled ``Achieving Financial Equity
and Justice for HBCUs''; a political news article urging
Congress to examine the importance of investing in the research
and development infrastructure of HBCUs; and a letter from 37
Member institutions of the UNCF, urging Congress to include
reconciliation language affecting HBCUs; and, finally, a
report, ``Blacks and STEM: Understanding the Issues for
NAFEO.''
Ms. Adams. It is no secret, Madam Chair, that I am
passionate about HBCUs. I am an advocate. I am a proud two-time
graduate of North Carolina A&T University, 40-year retired
professor and administrator at Bennett College, both HBCUs.
And so I remember my personal experiences when I came to
Congress to vow to make things right for our HBCU experience. A
significant piece of legislation I introduced in this Congress,
H.R. 3294, the IGNITE HBCU Excellence Act, which really has
support from conservative Senators to progressive Democrats,
and it will revitalize and rejuvenate our HBCU campuses.
My first question, HBCUs and other institutions of higher
education are classified as minority-serving institutions or
MSIs. So HBCUs and other institutions of higher education are
often sorted into the same category for participation in
programs and initiatives funded by the Federal Government.
Dr. Baskerville, will you talk briefly about the
similarities and differences between HBCUs and these other
types of institutions, both in terms of historic funding and
current financial status?
Ms. Baskerville. Yes. Thank you so very much, Madam
Chairwoman of the Bipartisan Caucus on HBCUs. There are
similarities in that the HBCUs and TCUs and the MSIs, those are
the demographic institutions, the Hispanic-serving, the
Tribal--the AANAPISIs and the PBIs. They are similar in the
types of students that they are graduating.
They are different--tremendously different--in their
founding and their mission. HBCUs and Tribal colleges and
universities are mission-based, non-racial, non-ethnic
institutions. They have no race criterion, no ethnic criterion,
but they have a mission of educating, in the case of HBCUs, the
progeny of the American slave system and others.
And HBCUs have done that since their founding. They have
been open to all persons who want to excel. And a question was
asked about diversity of thought. HBCUs believe in diversity of
thought, race, ethnicity, creed, and the entire gamut of
diversity. Our----
Ms. Adams. Let me move on to the others, Dr. Baskerville. I
only have a couple of minutes----
Ms. Baskerville. Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Adams ----so can you speak to why HBCU funding should
be decoupled from MSI funding?
Ms. Baskerville. Yes. Must be decoupled because HBCUs are
not like MSIs, and they have a history, a special relationship
that the United States continues to acknowledge, based on
slavery, the 200 years of slavery, 200 years since slavery, and
the lingering vestiges of discrimination. No other cohort of
American colleges has that.
For that reason, we cannot be clumped with other
institutions who are doing a good job, and NAFEO has fought to
get them recognized as geographic, minority-serving
institutions, but because of the uniqueness, the gross
underfunding, the vestiges that linger today, they must be
decoupled, and special programs established for HBCUs because
of that----
Ms. Adams. Let me ask Dr. Glover, your testimony, you spoke
about land-grant institutions not receiving proper matching
funding for decades. So how has the lack of matching funds to
land-grant institutions negatively impacted the resources
available to students at these land-grant institutions?
Ms. Glover. It has had a profound effect in that students
have not been able to engage in the programming that other
schools have, similar peer institutions or predominantly White
institutions. They were not able to do the extension work they
should have--they could have been doing.
For example, in Nashville, there is never the extension
work that is fully funded for TSU, as it is for other land
grant in Tennessee, not even----
Ms. Adams. Thanks very much.
Madam Chair, I am out of time. I am going to yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Ms. Adams, whatever other questions you
may have, submit them for the record, and we will have the
witnesses respond to you in writing.
Ms. Adams. Yes, ma'am, I will do that. Thank you, Madam
Chair.
Chairwoman Wilson ----to all Committee Members, in writing,
to do so.
Ms. Adams. Thank you.
Chairwoman Wilson. And now Mrs. McBath from Georgia,
welcome.
Mrs. McBath. Well, thank you so much, Madam Chairwoman, for
holding this really crucial discussion on the continued
essential role that historically Black colleges and
universities play in higher education, as well as the continued
need to strengthen and support HBCUs. And I also thank our
witnesses for sharing their time with us today.
As an alumna of an HBCU, Virginia State University--go
Trojans, have to get that in there--I know intimately the role
that HBCUs play, not just in individual students' lives but
also in America's higher education system.
HBCUs served for many decades as one of the only means for
African Americans and other minorities to gain a college
education. While many educational doors have opened since,
HBCUs still serve a very vital role in educating, nurturing,
and advancing America's students.
Without an HBCU education, this woman that you see before
you today may never have gone on to become a United States
Congresswoman, representing the great people of Georgia's Sixth
congressional District, nor perhaps would my colleagues be here
with me today, Representatives Frederica Wilson and also
Representative Alma Adams, both HBCU representatives and
graduates.
Further, the Nation may never have had U.S. Supreme Court
Justice Thurgood Marshall, a two-time graduate of HBCUs, nor
the first female Vice President Kamala Harris, also an HBCU
alum.
In my State of Georgia, we are home to nine HBCUs, the
third most in the country, tied with Texas. The United Negro
College Fund found that, in 2018, Georgia's HBCUs get--they
generated actually $1.3 billion in total economic impact to the
State and generated over 12,000 jobs.
HBCUs have provided so much to this country and its
accomplishments. And that is why it is imperative we, in turn,
provide continued funding to HBCUs. By doing so, we invest not
just in these institutions but in the future of this country.
Now my question is for Dr. Baskerville. Research shows that
HBCUs have higher success rates when compared to other 4-year
institutions with similar enrollments of Pell students.
After controlling for Pell enrollments, the average
institutional graduation rate for Black students at HBCUs was
38 percent compared with 32 percent for non-HBCUs. What is it
about the academic experience that is provided by HBCUs that
helps students attending these institutions to have better
outcomes than their peers that are attending non-HBCUs?
Ms. Baskerville. Thank you so very much for that question,
Congresswoman McBath. HBCUs are, most importantly, they are
offering the diverse courses and curricula that will prepare
the students for tomorrow's labor force, tomorrow's service
corps, and the like.
But they are doing it, many of them, in smaller, nurturing
environments. They are doing it in environments where
fortunately more of the faculty than you find at historically
White institutions are persons of color, persons who perhaps
came from their background, their culture. They share a common
ethos, but they are bringing to the table the academic piece,
but they also have the civic and the service and the spiritual
aspect--``spiritual'' meaning encouraging students to celebrate
something above and beyond themselves.
Additionally, they are richly diverse. HBCUs have about 70
percent students who are African ancestors and about 30 who are
not. Great diversity ratings, and they are improving as others
are. The faculty are even more diverse.
And so those who believe in an excellent environment,
smaller environment, costs are contained, and diversity, look
to HBCUs where we welcome persons of all backgrounds, all
interests, and certainly those who believe in different
philosophies as was discussed previously.
Mrs. McBath. Thank you so much, and I yield the rest of
what little time I have to my colleague, Alma Adams.
Ms. Adams. Thank you. I would like to thank the gentlelady
for yielding.
Dr. Glover, you talked about the neglect campuses have.
What financial resources are required, in your opinion, to
rectify this neglect?
Ms. Glover. Well, my campus, we are seeking to get the $544
million that has taken [inaudible] out of. And so that we are
in arrears in Tennessee. When we look across the board on
HBCUs, the neglect in deferred maintenance, the infrastructure,
the academic programs, it is going to average a significant
number across the campuses.
Ms. Adams. Thank you. I yield back. I am out of time, Madam
Chairman.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you so much. I will ask Ms. Glover
if she would respond in writing to your question, so that all
of the Committee Members will have that response.
Ms. Adams. Thank you.
Chairwoman Wilson. Right now I have to make an announcement
that is beyond our control. We tried to make this work, but Dr.
Glover has a meeting at the White House with the Vice President
of the United States and the National Panhellenic Council. So
we are going to excuse her now as she serves in both
capacities. Dr. Glover, you----
Ms. Glover. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Chairwoman Wilson. I have a text from the White House. So
we will proceed with the next. Any questions, Mrs. Hayes of
Connecticut? Mrs. Hayes of Connecticut?
Ms. Stevens of Michigan?
Ms. Stevens. Madam Chair, Ms. Stevens is here.
Chairwoman Wilson. Oh, OK. Good to see you.
Ms. Stevens. Thank you so much for letting me waive on to
today's incredible hearing. The materials and the testimony
were just instrumental, and I want to thank you, Madam
Chairwoman, and just all Members of the Subcommittee.
As we have discussed, for a century and a half, our HBCUs
have just been a critical source of producing workforce
diversity, and I am so grateful that we are here today
addressing their systematic, under-utilization and
underfunding, especially as it pertains to R&D and innovation
and other critical economic development needs.
I am also a proud cosponsor of the legislation from our
esteemed Chair of another incredible Committee here on Ed.
and Labor, her legislation to make historic investments in
HBCUs, and I would like to take my time and yield it to
Congresswoman Alma Adams from the great State of North
Carolina.
Ms. Adams. Thank you very much. I thank the gentlelady for
yielding.
I do want to talk a little bit about the research 1
institutions, and so Dr. Baskerville, of the 131 schools that
are classified as research 1 institutions by the Carnegie
Classification of Institutes of Higher Ed., none of those are
HBCUs.
There are 11 HBCUs, including my alma mater, North Carolina
A&T, which is the largest public university, which are among
135 schools classified as R2 or research 2 universities,
indicating that they do have high research activity.
So what actions can the Federal Government take, Dr.
Baskerville, both in the short-term and in the long-term to
develop multiple R1 HBCUs?
Ms. Baskerville. Thank you very much. In the short-term, we
need very much to have investments in our infrastructures that
will make sure that they have broadband and laboratories and
all of the things that are essential to continuing to do the
work that they are doing as very impressive research 2
institutions.
But they must be able to have the roads, the laboratories,
and community access for laboratories as well. So you need that
in the short term.
You also need in I think a short term, about $200 million
in an EPSCoR-like program that will bring to bear the resources
of the scientific, the Department of Defense, National Science
Foundation, and the other scientific departments and agencies,
to put resources toward them in recognition of the fact that we
are just 11 institutions, and they are principally responsible
for graduating 42 percent of Blacks with advanced degrees in
the science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, with
advanced degrees in education professions and
disproportionately in health professions.
We need them more than ever. We see what they are doing
with woefully low investments, and EPSCoR is something, a
program that the Department of Defense is presently involved in
with other scientific entities for the express purpose of
bringing online additional institutions.
It would be tremendous to start with HBCUs because of their
output, because of the disproportionate output.
They also have a success rate higher than any others in
moving persons from the lowest 20 percent of the quartile up to
the top----
Ms. Adams. Thank you.
Ms. Baskerville ----so that is really an economic impact.
Ms. Adams. Thank you so much. In the last few minutes, few
seconds that we have, I just want to mention, because I have
heard several of our speakers talk about not being able to find
students of color, African American students, and I just want
to put out there that the Bipartisan HBCU Caucus does have the
partnership challenge. We now have almost 70 corporate
individuals and entities involved where we help make those
partnerships work with these institutions that we are in touch
with each and every day.
So I just want to certainly invite any other corporate
folks that are listening, to become Members of the bipartisan
HBCU partnership because it really does work, and it is making
a difference for our schools and for the corporates.
I thank the lady for yielding back.
I yield, Madam Chair.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Adams.
And now Mr. Mfume of Maryland, thank you for being with us
the entire meeting. We appreciate it, your support----
Mr. Mfume. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Chairwoman Wilson ----we know your background. We know why
you have been on the whole time.
Mr. Mfume. Well, thank you. Thank you very much, and my
thanks also to the ranking minority Member for holding this
hearing. Obviously, I think it is very, very important, and so
does everyone on the call. Otherwise, we would not be here.
I do want to preface my remarks, Madam Chair, by calling
your attention to a New York Times article, rather lengthy, and
will soon probably be sort of the history of Fisk University
because it details the celebration and the significance of the
150th anniversary of the Fisk Jubilee Singers and what they and
that university have meant to this country. It is a great,
great article and I would recommend everybody's attention to
it.
I do want to also, if I might, in a sense of being
redundant and transparent, say a couple things, but I would be
remiss if I didn't also acknowledge Representative Adams for
her stewardship of HBCU issues and education issues in general
over so many years, and to also commend and thank the Chair,
Bobby Scott, for his leadership in this area and the fact that
there has not been a significant piece of legislation dealing
with higher ed or pre-K through 12 that he has not been a part
of over all these many years. So thank you both for that.
To be transparent, I am a graduate of historically Black
college Morgan State University here in Baltimore, was able to
find a way to matriculate at a very tough time. I got a degree,
and it prepared me later for my other high education work and
my other attempts to matriculate.
We were formed 4 years after Lincoln signed the
Emancipation Proclamation and have been graduating students, as
many of you are aware with your own institutions, for a long,
long time.
We are hopefully 2 years, maybe 3 years away from gaining
R1 status through Carnegie. We are working very, very hard to
do that. We have got a triple-A bond rating, we produce more
Fulbright scholars than 90 percent of the other institutions
that exist, and we are on our way in many respects to opening
and creating a school of osteopathic medicine to complement the
other aspects of the campus.
I wanted to say all that to say that there was preparation
there for me, as there is for so many young people today by
going to a historically Black college and university oftentimes
because they have not been able to go anywhere else.
I not only have questions for the witnesses; I want to
thank them for their testimony, and I want to just kind of
react and respond to a couple of things that I heard, Madam
Chair.
I think that it is important for us to pay attention to
this whole notion of research dollars, as was brought up before
by Mr. Perry. So, whether it is NIH, National Science
Foundation, NASA, or anyone else that is granting these
research dollars, that competitive, quote, competition really
has to be competitive and free of influence because oftentimes
institutions get through the first round, and then the second
round, which is under less scrutiny, is when the decision is
oftentimes made, and it is made based on whether or not you are
familiar with this school or that name or something else. And
so we see this awkward shift that has gone on for years in
terms of those research dollars.
Patents is another area that I think--I hope the Committee
focuses on because there is a great deal of funding there and a
great deal of opportunity, but, more importantly, there is a
great deal that can be contributed by Black colleges and
universities.
And on the matter of deferred maintenance, to the extent
that we are able to pass the Build Back Better Act, I am hoping
that--and perhaps it might be instructive to not just hope but
to also signify or signal to college presidents all over the
place that some of that money that is free to be used without a
lot of discretion, ought to go straight toward deferred
maintenance because we can't keep deferring deferred
maintenance.
Any college president like Ms. Manning and any others will
tell you that it is simply something that is going to happen,
and it is going to happen in the worst way if we don't take
care of it.
I know there was a comment earlier about why there are more
Black women in these colleges and universities as opposed to
Black men. I think 35 to 65 percent, something like that.
Let me just remind you that, prior to 1976, for the
previous 100 years, from 1876, it was just the reverse. In
those days, it was chauvinism and sexism. In these days, it is
peer pressure, it is prison, and a lot of other things that are
intangible that oftentimes equate and give us those kinds of
numbers.
So, if we look at the Fordice decision in Mississippi 12
years ago or the Maryland decision where we took the State to
court for 16 years before getting a $577 million settlement,
one thing is clear, and that is the fight for colleges and
universities who happen to be HBCUs is in desperate need for
more persons to line up as allies.
And HBCUs--this will be my final point, Madam Chair--there
is nothing inconsistent about that. People will say: Well, you
don't need the historically Black college and university. You
don't need them. Their days have outlived them, and we can do
things better because you can go anywhere.
Well, you really can't oftentimes go anywhere because of
prejudices that exist that are below the surface that go to a
number of intangibles that have been spoken about today. So, as
long as there is a Harvard and a Yale that remain essentially
WASP even though others may attend, that is not considered
inconsistent.
Even though there is a Brandeis and Yeshiva that remain
essentially Jewish even though others may attend, that is not
considered inconsistent.
And even though there is a Catholic U and a Notre Dame that
remain essentially Catholic even though others may attend, then
logic tells me that we ought to have a Morgan and a Morehouse
and a Hampton and a Howard and a Fisk, an NC AT&T, and other
colleges and universities that are holding down an historic
mission to make sure that no one is left behind.
I don't have any time to yield back, Madam Chair, because I
have exhausted it. Thank you for allowing me to get in a few
things at the conclusion of this meeting. I appreciate it.
Chairwoman Wilson. That was a keynote address. So I will
keep that. It has been recorded, and you will hear it over and
over and over as we move forward with the Commission on the
Social Status of Black Men and Boys. And you are way out of
time----
Mr. Mfume. Yes.
Chairwoman Wilson. I remind my colleagues that, pursuant to
Committee practice, materials for submission for the hearing
record must be submitted to the Committee Clerk within 14 days
following the last day of the hearing, so, by close of business
on October 20th, 2021, preferably in Microsoft Word format.
The material submitted must address the subject of the
hearing. Only a Member of the Subcommittee or an invited guest
may submit materials for inclusion in the hearing record.
Documents are limited to 50 pages each. Documents longer
than 50 pages will be incorporated into the record by way of an
interlink that you must provide to the Committee Clerk within
the required timeframe. But please recognize that in the future
that link may no longer work.
Pursuant to House rules and regulations, items for the
record should be submitted to the Clerk electronically by
emailing submissions to [email protected].
Again, I want to thank these amazing, head-strong witnesses
for their participation today. You were fantastic. We learned
all that we possibly could digest about HBCUs, and I appreciate
your participation.
Members of the Subcommittee may have additional questions
for you, and we ask the witnesses to please respond to those
questions in writing. The hearing record will be held open for
14 days in order to receive those responses.
I remind my colleagues that, pursuant to Committee
practice, witness questions for the hearing record must be
submitted to the Majority Committee staff or Committee Clerk
within 7 days. The questions submitted must address the subject
matter of the hearing.
I now recognize the distinguished ranking Member, Dr.
Murphy, for a closing statement.
Dr. Murphy?
Mr. Murphy. Thank you so much, Madam Chair.
And let me just say, I want to say to my colleague,
Representative Mfume, that I think those were fabulous
comments.
I agree with you, Chairwoman Wilson. I do agree that, when
moneys are spent, I do believe that we ought to deal with
deferred maintenance because so many of the colleges and
institutions, not just HBCUs, really need that capital
improvement. And I think it needs it a lot more than going into
further programs. So I applaud that statement and the comment,
and I want to thank all the witnesses today.
It was a very, very good discussion, and I appreciate the
Chairman for calling this. I am going to just--just a few other
points just to finish up.
While it is important that Congress continues to recognize
how HBCUs have provided students, it is equally important to
know that Congress will support their mission.
Over the last 18 months, these institutions were provided
billions--billions upon billions of taxpayer dollars, which
served as a temporary lifeline to mitigate what was happening
during the pandemic.
Without a doubt, colleges, institutions, businesses,
churches, you name it, benefited and are alive today because of
moneys that Congress appropriated.
But the fact of the matter is that higher education is
changing. More and more students are demanding learning
opportunities and credential offerings outside of the
traditional 4-year model, and COVID-19 only really accelerated
that trend.
This will require higher education institutions to change
as well, including HBCUs. Simply providing more and more money
is not the answer, in my opinion, but calls for additional
funding often ignore the interest of the taxpayers providing
this.
We have to be smart about the money that is being given to
colleges, institutions, and accountability needs to be
paramount. The taxpayer wallets are not unlimited, rather we
should build off the initiatives of the previous administration
in my opinion, encourage HBCUs to be innovative, just like any
other institution, such as fostering public-private
partnerships, that will provide a much more stable and reliable
business model that gives educational opportunities to the
students, more reliably than the Federal Government.
Doing so will ensure their longevity so that they continue
to serve their students for generations to come.
Thank you again to the witnesses. I believe a lot of great
comments occurred today, and thank you, Madam Chairman.
I will yield back.
Chairwoman Wilson. Thank you.
I want to thank the witnesses again, and I now recognize
myself for the purpose of making a closing statement.
And, before I do that, just keep in mind that in 1886, the
first HBCU was built, and some of the dormitories, some of the
student union buildings remain the same. And we have to keep
that in mind.
When I went to university, Fisk, we had a shower on the
hallway, a group shower, a group bathroom. Now our schools that
we have to compete with, each dormitory room has a bathroom.
We had no kitchen. Now dormitories on our competing
institutions have kitchens, a group kitchen. I had a little
tiny refrigerator and a little tiny hot plate. There were no--
nothing else. Just a little hot plate that sometimes would
cause fires in the dormitories.
So these HBCUs have not been able to keep up for these
centuries that they have been built. So let's just keep that in
mind. This is a way to bring all of this to the forefront and a
way for all of us to know and understand that we are not being
selfish. We are being pragmatic and realistic, and we, as
Members of Congress, have to make a difference.
I want to thank the witnesses, and I want you to know that
today we reflected on the historical roots of historically
Black colleges and universities and examined their continued
contributions to our higher education system.
For generations, HBCUs have provided our students,
particularly Black and low-income students, with the supportive
community and opportunities for economic mobility.
Unfortunately, as our witnesses shared, and our
congressional Members, HBCUs continue to experience persistent
challenges, including systematic underfunding, chronic State
disinvestment, and discriminatory funding policies have left
HBCUs to achieve far more with far less.
We must continue to invest in HBCUs and their students. To
this end, Congress has delivered $6.5 billion to HBCUs over the
last year and a half. And most recently through the Committee's
portion of the Build Back Better Act, we approved over $30
billion in funding that will help support these institutions.
However, far more--keep in mind--far more is needed to
correct decades, centuries of underfunding and historic
inequities, and I will continue to work with my colleagues on
this Committee, Education and Labor, the entire Committee, to
champion solutions to these pressing challenges.
In light of the unique mission and history of HBCUs, I
firmly believe that investing in these institutions and their
students is one of the most significant actions we can take to
right the wrongs of the past.
In our communities, there is a lot of discussion and debate
about reparations taking place in the African-American
community in a variety of settings. From the beauty shops to
the barber shops, to the local and social circles, wherever I
go, that is all people want to ask me about: Congresswoman
Wilson, why do you want to study reparations? What are you
going to learn? Study how?
And I have always felt that the solution must be education.
Me, that is Congresswoman Frederica Wilson. So soon I plan to
file legislation that will help students who have been impacted
by the legacy of slavery to cover the cost of attendance to any
of our Nation's HBCUs.
And I know every student doesn't want to attend an HBCU,
but those that do, I consider this investment to be long
overdue and would ensure that any descendant of enslaved
Americans can access a debt-free higher education at a world-
class institution.
I have been even toying with the idea of targeting the most
endangered human being in America: Black boys.
Please, I ask you to let me know of your thoughts.
Mr. Chairman, once I file this bill, I hope we can bring
this bill to a markup.
Congress has a responsibility to address the enduring
impact of slavery and decades of discriminatory policy,
including how these factors have contributed to a sizable
racial wealth gap.
I look forward to working with my colleagues on this
Committee and all of the relevant stakeholders to ensure that
HBCUs not only survive but continue to thrive and grow for
decades to come.
We will need innovative and transformative solutions to
truly provide these historic institutions with the support that
they need and deserve.
Thank you again to our witnesses.
If there is no further business, without objection, this
Subcommittee stands adjourned.
[Additional submission by Hon. Alma S. Adams, a
Representative in Congress from the State of North Carolina
follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
[Question submitted for the record and the response by Ms.
Baskerville follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
[Questions submitted for the record and the responses by
Mr. Perry follow:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
[Whereupon, at 2:47 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]
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