[House Hearing, 119 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] STREAMING SUCCESS: SMALL BUSINESSES IN THE AGE OF DIGITAL INFLUENCE ======================================================================= HEARING before the COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ HEARING HELD SEPTEMBER 17, 2025 __________ [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Small Business Committee Document Number 119-021 Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov ______ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 61-899 WASHINGTON : 2026 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman PETE STAUBER, Minnesota DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas JAKE ELLZEY, Texas MARK ALFORD, Missouri NICK LALOTA, New York BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota TONY WIED, Wisconsin ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania BRIAN JACK, Georgia TROY DOWNING, Montana KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas JIMMY PATRONIS, Florida NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey GIL CISNEROS, California KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota GEORGE LATIMER, New York DEREK TRAN, California LATEEFAH SIMON, California JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire Lauren Holmes, Majority Staff Director Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director C O N T E N T S OPENING STATEMENTS Page Hon. Roger Williams.............................................. 1 Hon. Nydia Velazquez............................................. 2 WITNESSES Ms. Kayla Moran, Founder and Attorney, Kayla Moran Law, Coral Gables, FL..................................................... 5 Ms. Christina Brennan, President, Renegade Talent Mgmt/ CelebExperts LLC, Endicott, NY................................. 7 Mr. Nicholas Luciano, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Tratter House, Millsap, TX..................................... 8 Mr. Jesse Appell, Founder and Owner, Jesse's Tea House, Los Angeles, CA.................................................... 10 APPENDIX Prepared Statements: Ms. Kayla Moran, Founder and Attorney, Kayla Moran Law, Coral Gables, FL................................................. 39 Ms. Christina Brennan, President, Renegade Talent Mgmt/ CelebExperts LLC, Endicott, NY............................. 47 Mr. Nicholas Luciano, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Tratter House, Millsap, TX................................. 49 Mr. Jesse Appell, Founder and Owner, Jesse's Tea House, Los Angeles, CA................................................ 51 Questions for the Record: None. Answers for the Record: None. Additional Material for the Record: Cornell University........................................... 54 Engine Letter................................................ 57 House Committee on Small Business Democratic Staff Letter.... 60 House Committee on Small Business Democratic Staff Letter 2.. 79 STREAMING SUCCESS: SMALL BUSINESSES IN THE AGE OF DIGITAL INFLUENCE ---------- WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 17, 2025 House of Representatives, Committee on Small Business, Washington, DC. The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 2:04 p.m., in Room 2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams [chairman of the Committee] presiding. Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Alford, LaLota, Jack, Downing, King-Hinds, Schmidt, Patronis, Velazquez, McGarvey, Scholten, McIver, Cisneros, Olszewski, Conaway, and Goodlander. Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, I want to recognize Congressman Alford from the great State of Missouri to lead us in the pledge and the prayer. Would you please stand. Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Chair. Let's go in that order. We'll start with the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Our dear Father in Heaven, we just thank you for this day. Thank you that we have it to be here to make positive change for America in small businesses. God, we thank you for our Chair and our Ranking Member, for their leadership, and bringing this Committee together for the common purpose of supporting small businesses and making those improvements to the SBA where we can. God, I thank you for the witnesses here today. Give them patience with us sometimes and us with them, and just help us to learn something, that we can take that knowledge for the betterment of America, and give them a safe trip home. It is through Jesus Christ we pray. Amen. Chairman WILLIAMS. Amen. Good afternoon, everyone. I now call the Committee on Small Business to order. And without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of the Committee at any time. I now recognize myself for my opening statement. Welcome to today's hearing, titled ``Streaming Success: Small Business in the Age of Digital Influence.'' Today we will examine one of the fastest growing sectors of our economy: content creation. While some may think of content creators only as online personalities, they really are a new generation of entrepreneurs taking risk in navigating the rapidly growing industry. Content creators are more than just entertainers. They are small business owners, entrepreneurs, and job creators. They have transformed digital influence into sustainable careers by launching product lines, providing education, and creating loyal communities around everything from sports to law. In fact, more than 1.5 million Americans now earn a full- time living as creators. Americans are building small businesses through platforms like YouTube. YouTube itself contributes $55 billion and half a million jobs to the American economy. Globally, this sector is already valued over $250 billion, and it is projected to drive $2 trillion in social commerce by 2026. The impact of this economy goes far beyond the creators themselves. A single successful creator fuels jobs for editors, designers, video producers, product manufacturers, and countless other small businesses. This superb--or this spiderweb effect shows what content creators aren't just building brands but powering an entire ecosystem of small business growth. But as with any small business, they face real challenges. Unique tax situations, unpredictable revenue streams, and costly intellectual property protections create barriers for these small business owners. Like this Committee has seen too often, red tape makes it difficult for these entrepreneurs. So the creator economy is a prime example of the American entrepreneur spirit. Creators are innovative, they are fiercely competitive, and contribute greatly to America's economy. By reducing barriers and ensuring the government does not stand in the way, we can ensure that these small businesses have the freedom to thrive and grow in a digital economy. So I look forward to today's discussion. I now recognize my distinguished Ranking Member and my friend for her opening remarks, Ms. Velazquez from New York. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman--and good afternoon, everyone--for calling this important hearing. Like with any emerging technology, nobody could fully foresee the economic and social implications of social media as it has been. Since then, the landscape of social media has evolved. America is now home to a novel content creation industry worth billions of dollars. Content creators come from assorted backgrounds, and their paths to content creation are just as diverse. Many are owners of traditional small businesses, looking to advertise their goods and services to new audiences. Others post about topics that they are passionate in, go viral, and connect with their devout following, and a golden opportunity for ad revenue develops almost overnight. With the low to nonexistent capital requirements and cost of starting and operating a social media page, coupled with the prospects of instant fame, it is no wonder so many American youths today dream of becoming content creators. America's content creators often encounter longstanding issues that this Committee has addressed time and time again. As the world becomes more interconnected, especially in the online sphere, tariffs are an outside barrier to content creators looking to grow their small businesses through product and merchandise sales. This spring, I led 67 colleagues in sending a letter to the Trump administration's U.S. Trade Representative, Treasury Department, Commerce Department, and SBA, calling on them to consider and address the needs of small businesses in their tariff decisions. I still have not received a response from the Trade Representative or Commerce Secretary. Mr. Chairman, I seek unanimous consent to enter the letter into the record. Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. With the new technologies and new industry come new challenges. The rise of social media has also seen the rise of online hate and harassment, the side effects of algorithmic content creation, the proliferation of content harmful to children, and the drowning of our discourse with AI slop. I would also be remiss if I did not address the elephant in the room: the ban on one of America's most important social media platforms, TikTok. TikTok has given small businesses a lifeline in a sea of inflation, labor shortages, and ever-changing consumer preferences. With this tool in their toolboxes, small business owners can expand their reach and sales far beyond their hometowns, making them profitable and sustainable. Now we are in TikTok limbo. After President Trump's attempt to ban TikTok through executive action and Congress' subsequent legislative action, he has suddenly U-turned and is repeatedly delaying the ban's enforcement for short periods of time. In fact, the last delay was supposed to expire today and was only reextended yesterday by 3 months. President Trump claims he will reach a deal to keep TikTok available in America within 30 to 45 days, but it hasn't been finalized. Such short timeframes create uncertainty for the content creators that rely on this platform, rendering them unable to plan beyond a 2-month horizon and adding immeasurable pressure to their business models. America's content creators deserve a federal government that is willing and able to support their endeavors. That requires responsive agency and strong, stable public policy conducive to a prosperous business environment. It also means enacting thoughtful policies to rein in harmful content when necessary. With that, I thank all the witnesses for your presence today, and I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. I now will introduce our witnesses. First witness here with us today is Ms. Kayla Moran. Ms. Moran is an attorney and the founder of Kayla Moran Law based in Miami, Florida. Ms. Moran began her career as a personal injury attorney before finding her own firm--founding her own firm to represent creators and entrepreneurs in the growing creator economy. She is also the host of ``The Let's Get Candid'' podcast, where she inspires young women to pursue their passions and build careers on their own terms. Ms. Moran earned her J.D. from the University of Tennessee College of Law, and holds a bachelor's degree from the University of Central Florida. We are looking to your testimony this morning--or today. Our next witness here with us today is Ms. Christina Brennan. Ms. Brennan is the president of CelebExperts located in New York City. She began her career in sales with the New York Yankees---- Did you sell them out? Ms. BRENNAN. You know it. Top of the board. Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay.--and quickly rose to the talent industry, becoming the youngest vice president of CelebExperts history, while growing a roster of over 30 exclusive influencers with a reach of more than 46 million followers. Ms. Brennan now oversees partnerships, brand strategy, and talent management for top-tier clients across the sports, food, and digital career industries, having aggregated tens of millions of dollars for both startups and Fortune 500 companies. Ms. Brennan earned her bachelor of science in sports management from Syracuse University. Thank you for joining us today. The next witness we welcome today is a constituent of mine, Mr. Nicholas Luciano from Weatherford, Texas. Mr. Luciano is the founder and chief executive officer of Tratter House located in Weatherford, as I spoke. Mr. Luciano worked as a mechanical engineer for the U.S. Department of Defense before making a pivot in 2020 to launch his own brand and media company. Since then, he has grown a digital audience of over 8 million, generated a 7-figure revenue through brand deals and merchandise, and helped companies expand their online presence. Nicholas earned his bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering technology from the University of North Texas, the Mean Green. And thank you for traveling here from the great State of Texas to testify for us today, Nicholas. I now recognize the Ranking Member from New York, Ms. Velazquez, to briefly introduce our last witness appearing before us today. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Jesse Appell is a comedian and entrepreneur, owning and operating Jesse's Teahouse, an e-commerce business specializing in high-quality tea and tea accessories. Born and raised in the Boston area, Mr. Appell became a Fulbright scholar, studying standup comedy in China, an experience he leveraged to begin posting about Chinese tea on TikTok during the COVID pandemic. Later, he went viral, used the attention to launch a tea business, and still posts today about his products, intercultural exchange, and his greatest standup hits. His work has also been featured on TEDx, PBS, NPR, and Chinese media. Mr. Appell holds a bachelor's degree in East Asian studies and international and global studies from Brandeis University. Welcome, Mr. Appell. Chairman WILLIAMS. If you are a comedian, you are going to do great up here. We appreciate all of you being here again before us. And before recognizing, I want to--I would like to remind that oral testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length. And if you see the light turn on in front of you, if it is red, if it turns on, it means your 5 minutes has concluded and you should wrap up your testimony. And if you keep going, you are going to hear this, and it will just get louder and louder, and finally you are going to have to stop, okay. I know you will do it just right. So anyways, it will be easy. I now recognize Ms. Moran for her 5-minute opening remarks. STATEMENTS OF MS. KAYLA MORAN, FOUNDER & ATTORNEY, KAYLA MORAN LAW; MS. CHRISTINA BRENNAN, PRESIDENT, CELEBEXPERTS LLC; MR. NICHOLAS LUCIANO, FOUNDER & CEO, TRATTER HOUSE; AND MR. JESSE APPELL, FOUNDER & OWNER, JESSE'S TEAHOUSE STATEMENT OF KAYLA MORAN Ms. MORAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ms. Ranking Member of the Committee, for the opportunity to speak with you today. And thank you to my fellow experts for joining me in giving creators in the creator economy a platform. My name is Kayla Moran, and I am the founder and managing attorney of Kayla Moran Law, a dedicated creator economy firm with an innovative creator-first approach to help influencers and entrepreneurs build, scale, and protect their businesses. I am a first-generation American born to a Latin family in Miami. My father is a Marine Corps veteran turned banker, and my mother is an operations executive. I entered this industry as a creator myself in 2018, and during the rise of TikTok, I realized creators need lawyers who understand their perspective. I have been a small business owner in the creator economy for over 4 years, first as a blogger and podcast host, then as an influencer manager, and now as an attorney. The story of American entrepreneurship is changing. Today, the storefronts of main street have moved online. The creator economy with its low barriers to entry and flexibility open new career paths for Americans. Starting in its early years with bloggers and evolving into marketing agencies hiring social media influencers, the creator economy has disrupted traditional and costly multimillion dollar marketing productions. It has become a very lucrative career path, and now creators need Congressional backed support and protection to support and protect them as they navigate the industry as it continues to grow. Running a business from a phone allows millions of Americans to turn their skills, voices, and ideas into businesses. Creators can turn side hustles into careers, stay at home while still putting food on the table, and students can even pay their way through college. While the average American may discredit influencing as a hobby, Goldman Sachs, in their 2023 creator economy report, projected the industry could grow to almost $0.5 trillion by 2027. In the U.S., there are full strategic teams at marketing agencies sourcing the right influencer for their client's marketing goals and allocating million-dollar budgets. And these businesses, at the heart of economic growth, deserve the same protections as traditional ones. The Small Business Administration's mission of providing aid and protecting the interest of small business owners should be extended to this industry. Creative entrepreneurs need access to dedicated creator economy experts, including lawyers, accountants, and wealth management services, to give them the same level of support and protection the SBA provides to restaurants and mechanic shops so they feel equally valued and respected. The rise of the creator economy has elevated the importance of the right of publicity, the ability to commercialize your name, image, and likeness, and it requires federal attention. Currently this right is governed by a patchwork of inconsistent State laws originally designed to protect privacy, which gives little guidance to creators across State lines. Federal statutory guidance would be helpful to us as service professionals seeking to standardize a very cyclical industry. Managers are not always equipped with the resources to support their clients. Perhaps creator economy lawyers having a federal license similar to the patent bar could be a solution. If creators know to hire an attorney, they turn to their neighborhood lawyer, but the issues impacting this growing cohort of American entrepreneurs needs dedicated and tailored support, which we could provide if we were not in fear of triggering unauthorized practice-of-law issues. Another growing concern is the concentration of power among a few large marketing agencies. This trend toward monopolization is creating a severe imbalance in bargaining power between contracting parties. Due to the overall lack of education and the legal implications of intellectual property ownership and other deal terms, marketing agencies are restricting a creator's ability to negotiate their rights while continuing to offload their responsibilities of production and distribution, leaving all parties frustrated. Similarly, the one-sided payment terms marketing agencies rely on hinder a creator's ability to earn a steady income. Often payment terms are net 60 or net 90, meaning a creator won't be paid for their work for up to 3 months, and payments are still late or they never come. Unfortunately, creators are unaware that they can sue in small claims court. And the ineffective governing law clauses in these agreements, if they are present at all, are yet another disadvantage they face. While Congress is currently acknowledging the mental health of minors on social media, and there are a few scattered State laws that require protective financial trust for children performers, another issue is the lack of national oversight enabling forum shopping and exploitation of child creators where no regulations exist. And, lastly, there are growing platform volatility issues creators face with the rise of AI and account hacking. Right now, a creator's only mechanism to recover their account and loss of income is a Digital Millennium Copyright Act takedown. However, because a DMCA takedown action often requires registration of an account holder's trademarks and/or copyright, which is cost prohibitive at volume, and creators are often unaware these traditional IP protections are available to them, it is not the most feasible option. This impacts small businesses using social media as well, where there is a growing practice of bigger companies using the DMCA takedown tools built into platforms to restrict and shut down their competition, what are traditionally considered unfair trade practices. I hope I have demonstrated today how creators are small business owners and how they need the same infrastructure of support and protection that other American entrepreneurs receive. This is a pivotal moment, and I am honored to be here. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions. Chairman WILLIAMS. Great job. And I now recognize Ms. Brennan for her 5-minute opening remarks. STATEMENT OF CHRISTINA BRENNAN Ms. BRENNAN. Good afternoon, Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, and distinguished Members of the Committee. My name is Christina Brennan, and I am honored to appear before you today to discuss the impact of social media on small businesses, entrepreneurs, and local economies. When people think of social media, they often picture a feed of birthday photos, vacation selfies, or the occasional ``no excuses'' gym post. But beneath the surface is an entire web and ecosystem of commerce. Social media is a marketplace, a workplace, and in many cases, a lifeline for small and large businesses alike. In the United States, the social media industry has grown into a multihundred-billion-dollar industry, touching everything from advertising and publishing to retail and entertainment. But its impact is perhaps most deeply felt by small businesses. For a restaurant owner, a craftsman, or a young college athlete building her brand, social media isn't just marketing, it is survival and it is scale. For influencers, whether they have a few hundred followers or millions, revenue streams are diverse: brand partnerships, affiliate revenue, platform payments, merchandise, and even their own product lines. Every influencer fuels an ecosystem of offshoot businesses: attorneys, assistants, editors, publishing houses, and managers like myself. Some even play strategic roles in fundraising and acquisitions for emerging startups. Consider Azuna, a Buffalo-based brand whose digital strategy helped it scale to 25 employees, a Buffalo Bills partnership, and four agencies. Additionally, they have contracted over 100 influencers, some of which sit on their cap table. Or Chef Darian Bryan, an immigrant entrepreneur with multiple restaurants and a recent Snickers campaign at Highmark Stadium creating food so delicious it would make you want to break a table. These are local economic engines powered by digital reach. And the beauty of social media is its accessibility. I helped scale CelebExperts and Renegade Talent Management while living outside Fort Bragg, North Carolina, as a proud military spouse. Unlike many in my community who face staggering unemployment rates, I was fortunate to continue my career remotely. Social media allows for people to earn a living, contribute to their families, and bring economic opportunity to their hometowns in various locations, whether that is Buffalo, Fayetteville, or Endicott, New York. Most recently, our organization has begun work in the NIL space, specifically, young, dynamic women who are learning to build long-lasting businesses around passions that they love. This next generation represents not just a cultural shift but a chance to democratize entrepreneurship itself. But as powerful as this industry is, it faces real challenges. Today, I would like to highlight three. First, cash flow. Too often, influencer partnerships are paid months after services are delivered. For many creators and small businesses, waiting that long is not just difficult, it is unsustainable. I do want to add, we were one of the first ever influencer agencies, and that is not how it was when this originally started. Second, the rise of AI. We are entering a world where it is increasingly difficult to know what is real and what is fake. Bot influencers, content theft, dubbing, and misrepresentations don't just hurt credibility, but it can have dangerous consequences. Third, the resource gap. Many new entrepreneurs lack the knowledge to navigate contracts and offers. Education and transparency in this space are critical. This isn't just about the creators I manage, it is about the creators I don't. Social media is no longer just about pictures and posts. It is about people, jobs, and communities. It deserves thoughtful consideration, protection, and support as we navigate its future together. Thank you. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Mr. Luciano for his 5-minute opening remarks. STATEMENT OF NICHOLAS LUCIANO Mr. LUCIANO. Good afternoon, Chairman, Ranking Member, and Members of the Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you all today. My name is Nick Luciano. I grew up in Maryland, not far from here, but for the last 10 years, I have called Weatherford, Texas home. I came to Texas, fell in love with the western lifestyle--riding, roping, and rodeo--and I built my life there. Before I ever made a piece of content, I earned a degree in mechanical engineering technology from the University of North Texas, and worked for 3 years as a mechanical engineer for the Department of Defense. My job was to design protective systems and run high-speed cameras to safeguard our soldiers. That experience taught me problem solving, systems thinking, and responsibility at the highest level. I bring that same mindset to the digital space. Along the way, I have built an audience of over 8 million followers across platforms, and I have created the third most-liked TikTok in the entire world. That moment showed me that, not only the global impact of this new digital landscape, but also that I have played a role in help crafting and shape it. I first started posting content not to get famous but to help people. I realized that something as simple as a video could reach someone at just the right time. In college, I would get messages from classmates saying my posts encouraged them to keep pushing forward. But years later, I have received messages from people saying that my videos have literally saved their lives. One man wrote--he actually emailed me while he was sitting on the tailgate of his truck, ready to end it all, but after coming across my video, he didn't pull the trigger. I was crying in an airport when that happened. Moments like that showed me that this work is bigger than clicks and likes. It is about impact. It is about using digital platforms to reach people, to build trust, and to create positive changes. That is where my journey shifted from being ``just an influencer'' to becoming what I call a creatorpreneur. Influencers chase trends and attention, but creatorpreneurs like me build businesses, solve problems, create jobs, while still connecting with millions of people online. For me that meant founding Tratter House, the first western lifestyle content house. What started as a group of creators under one roof, grown into a business that partners with major brands like Ariat, Spotify, Red Bull, et cetera; and we support artists like Bailey Zimmerman and Will Moseley; and now we are focused on artist development and marketing strategy. We don't just post videos, we roadmap careers. We help artists build merchandise lines, manage online stores, and craft content strategies that cut through the noise. We also run a nonprofit, the Tratter Foundation, where every year we fly a family to Texas to give them a once-in-a-lifetime western experience. Tratter House has created jobs directly--my cofounders, full-time team members, editors, accountants, merch members-- and indirectly, through partnerships with printers, fulfilment companies, record labels, rodeos, and a bunch of small businesses across the country. Our biggest win to date has been helping our new artist, Tyce Delk. We launched his debut single. And with our strategy, his very first release hit over 5 million streams in just under a month, reached number one on Spotify Viral 50 in both the USA and Canada, climbed to number six on Texas radio, and charted globally. That is not just a viral moment, that is building a foundation for a sustainable career, and it is proof that digital creators like me can generate real economic results. But here is the challenge. When many people hear the word ``influencer,'' they picture kids making silly videos for clicks, and that is a stigma that I want to break. Behind the scenes, many of us are educated, disciplined, and purpose- driven. We are running teams, managing payrolls, filing taxes, and partnering with brands and other small businesses. We are contributing to the economy just like any other entrepreneur. That is why the term I prefer is ``creatorpreneur,'' because, yes, I create content, but I also employ people, serve clients, and build businesses. My vision for the future is clear. The creators who endure--who build trust, and serve their audiences, and innovate in business--are the next generation of entrepreneurs. We are not just chasing clicks; we are building foundations. We understand how to attract millions of people online, nurture those relationships, and channel that trust into businesses, nonprofits, and movements that make a real difference. And if I could leave you with one takeaway, it is this: People like me aren't in it for the money and fame. We are in it to change lives, build businesses, and strengthen communities. We are part of a new economy, one rooted in trust, creativity, and purpose. So when you think about influencers, I ask you to see us not as just entertainers but creatorpreneurs--innovators, small business owners, and job creators who are here to stay. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your questions. Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. I now recognize Mr. Appell for his 5-minute opening remarks. STATEMENT OF JESSE APPELL Mr. APPELL. Good afternoon, Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, and Members of the Small Business Committee, and to everybody watching on YouTube. I want to thank you all for the honor and opportunity to represent my fellow creator small businesses and to farm the aura of this esteemed chamber. My name is Jesse Appell. I am the founder of Jesse's Teahouse. I run an online teahouse, which is really two businesses--it is a media company and an e-commerce business. Every day, my 1.5 million followers watch me make and drink tea, and some of these followers actually buy the tea that I drink. As of today, we have sent over 80,000 orders to customers all over the country. I source my teas from farmers in China and Taiwan, many of whom I met during my time as a Fulbright research fellow in China. My work as a cultural ambassador has now moved online, and I spend several months a year in Asia, going to tea mountains, filming videos with our farmers so people can see the tea that they are drinking and know the people who grow it. I started this business with my own savings from my dad's kitchen during COVID, and it has just been amazing to see how it has grown. I get tons of messages from customers who have shared a tea time with their spouse or kids or parents, but sometimes emails even go deeper. One customer was a veteran who told me that the ritual of tea making, along with the socialization of inviting people over, was the best treatment for PTSD that he had found so far. Another told me that he had replaced hard drugs with tea, swapping one habit for another and the mantra, ``Only tea in the house.'' All of this good is possible because of two uniquely American pillars: a free internet, where I can share my story; and a free market that allows me to sell the best tea in the world. It is to the protection and improvement of those free systems that I hope to call the committee's attention today. On challenges related to internet freedoms, the most immediate issue for my business is the potential banning of TikTok. A few hours before this statement was due, news broke that there was a TikTok deal. And if there is a good deal, I think that is excellent news for creators. If TikTok is banned, I lose 600,000 followers and sales losses likely in the hundreds of thousands. But even if the TikTok deal is perfect, this process was not comfortable for creators. There was a real chance that creating what amounts to an American version of the great firewall, which would have solved this problem with reactive isolation rather than the American ideals of openness, law, and transparency. And in the end, a deal is not a law and deals can be undone, so I urge Congress to codify any deal. Because even if every national security issue with TikTok were resolved, the battle on copyright enforcement, on data privacy, and algorithm manipulation, these all continue. And as Congress considers these issues, I hope that you will consult us creators. I definitely don't want foreign powers manipulating my algorithm, but I also don't want domestic CEOs or even a for-profit board manipulating my algorithm. Creators want clearly defined rules which all platforms will play by, not just foreign ones. As for challenges in the free market, the recent tariffs have had a devastating impact on my business. I estimate that we have lost approximately $250,000 in sales as a direct result of the most recent trade war. I run a subscription tea club where every 3 months I send new teas to all the subscribers, but our May subscription box just sat in the port during the trade war, and we couldn't send it. We had to skip it all together. We also couldn't get a single restock shipment in from the entire time between January and August. This is all in addition to the increased taxes. Further, the chaotic nature of the policy changes has also been a challenge. I woke up one day to find the de-minimis clause had been closed completely, without exception. The Postal Service had to shut down all packages coming from China while they awaited further instructions. Then it was reversed, and then it was reinstated. And will it be reversed again? It is hard to tell. Developing a new product takes 6 to 9 months, and it is hard for me to know what U.S. trade policy will be in 6 to 9 months. And beyond my personal stake, should it really be necessary for small business owners to need day-to-day updates on my new trade policy issues in order to run a small business? In the end, I sell tea. I am a tea guy. There are no national security implications and no jobs to be gained from a tariff. And yet the real jobs that I have created for myself and my five American employees have been staked as leverage and are being treated as less important than hypothetical jobs that might come from a hypothetical success of the tariff. I urge the Members to consider exempting small businesses from these tariffs. As small business, we simply do not have the resources to withstand these added costs and uncertainties. Finally, I want to thank the Members for their time and attention. I paid for my own ticket to come here and share my experiences in good faith. If any Members believe I can be of help in any way going forward, please contact me. I am here to try to solve these problems. A wise man once said, Do it for the 'gram. Today, I do not just for the 'gram, but for America and all creators. Thank you very much. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. Thank you all for that, and we will now move to the Member questions under the 5-minute rule. I recognize myself for 5 minutes. Mr. Luciano, you left your career at the Department of Defense to pursue content creation full time, as you said, in a leap that many would see as unconventional. But today, we are seeing more people make that jump. So the question is, what aspects of the content creator industry inspired you to make that transition? What opportunities motivated your decision? Mr. LUCIANO. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question. Honestly, what motivated me was to start a purpose-driven career. I loved working for the Department of Defense, but there was always a fire in me to help people. And I felt like me, myself, as a Christian, it gave me the reach to talk about my faith and talk about mental health in ways that were unconventional, especially with the start of TikTok. I realized very quickly, me being a systems guy, that the systems of this algorithm were built different and I wanted to use it for good. So I downloaded TikTok at my desk in 2019, and the rest is history. And I have been able to work with dream brands and start my own businesses, and I feel like I am walking in a path of purpose. So that is really the main driver behind it. Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. Ms. Brennan, the rise of name, image, and likeness-- something we are all interested in--has changed the landscape for athletes and creators, opening new doors for entrepreneurs, and establishing a lasting market presence. So the question is, how have you worked with your clients to navigate this space when it comes to protecting and strengthening their personal brands? Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you so much for that question. You know, it is a really cool time to be involved with, you know, young athletes, because they are able to finally monetize their brands and build businesses beyond just what they do. They can explore passions and build out big programs. I mean, we are talking about equity programs and things like that, interests outside of their sports. I have worked with companies like IPSY Beauty Box, and that is really exciting, because you think athlete, okay, you think ball and stick, things like that, but you don't necessarily think about the offshoot businesses created because of that. And that has just been a honor and a blessing. We work with-- our firm works with both NIL athletes and pros, and it has just been incredible to see these young women grow, learn more about business, and have real passions and goals outside of their sport as well, further extending their longevity, may I add, as well. Thank you. Chairman WILLIAMS. Good. This question will be to all of you in my remaining time, so we will start down here and move. Content creation has become a powerful driver in today's economy, expanding opportunities for entrepreneurship. So from each of your perspectives, how important are creators to the American economy and their communities? Ms. MORAN. Thank you for the question. I think as many of us have said, it creates jobs not only for ourselves, but I have my staff here with me, some of them, my family helps me out, and I do pay them when they create content for me. I think also, as Jesse has said, you know, they create sales. They are creating product lines and merch and beauty companies and service businesses and product-based businesses as well. So I think they are a driver of the economy because, as we are here, it is a small business, and at the end of the day, this country is built on small businesses. Chairman WILLIAMS. Good. That is right. Thanks. Ms. BRENNAN. Seventy-seven percent of small businesses in the United States use social media for essential functions, such as sales, marketing, and customer service, according to BusinessDasher. That is significant, and I would argue that that is a dated number. Social media is not just a vehicle for sales; it is branding, it is voice, and it is connecting with the consumer. Small businesses have the opportunity to geo tag where they are and have this plethora of, you know, new views and new opportunities that come from that. I work with Azuna, the Buffalo-based company, and they are expanding like wildfire due to their digital strategy. It is impressive and it is incredible. And they are intertwined with the creator economy. It is a really exciting time, and I am looking forward to, you know, finding additional ways that these creators can expand. Thank you. Chairman WILLIAMS. Good. We have got 50 seconds, so, Mr. Luciano, if you could come and then we will finish up---- Mr. LUCIANO. Yes, sir. I will make it brief. I will just reference a video of mine where I adopted a dog at a local shelter in Stephenville, went viral, and we started an annual event called K-9s and Coffee, where we brought all small businesses together to help raise money to fund a new shelter because they are underfunded in the local community. Chairman WILLIAMS. Good. Mr. APPELL. Thank you, Chairman. For my part, I just want to add more of a spiritual addition here. The enjoyment that I get out of life of being my own boss, going in my own direction, doing what I love to do, this is, I think, what really is making creators so eager to find a way to make a living so that they can live this kind of lifestyle. Thank you. Chairman WILLIAMS. Great. Well, I will yield my time back. I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of questions. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Appell, how do small businesses and content creators earn money and grow on social media? Mr. APPELL. Thank you, Congresswoman. There is a couple ways you can make money. One of them is you can make money off of views. If you get enough views, they will pay you for the views, different platforms will. People can do branding deals and merchandising deals; the other witnesses have talked about that. Another way is by creating your own brand and essentially going way beyond merch, so rather than just the T-shirt or a hat with my name on it, to be able to sell tea pots and equipment and specialized teas and stuff like that. So there are various ways that creators can make money. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. And you mentioned the tariff wars. President Trump's escalating trade wars have caused tariff rates to change often. What business uncertainty did that pose? Mr. APPELL. Thank you. It adds a lot of uncertainty. It is very difficult to price items when I don't know how much I am paying for them. During the--kind of the worst parts of the tariff war, I had already had boats with tea that had left the port, and I didn't know what I would be paying for them when they would arrive. That was an extreme version of this. But even beyond it, if a tax is raised, I can kind of adjust, but it is difficult to know how much extra I should adjust based off of future uncertainty given that we are working on 60- or 90-day schedules until the next deal. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. What knowledge do you need to navigate the tax tariffs? Mr. APPELL. Obviously, we need to spend a lot of time, a lot more than before, keeping our eyes on the news, keeping our eyes on tweets where a lot of times the news breaks earlier than other places. And also, I need to spend a lot more time communicating with my suppliers in China. They are ready to go. I am ready to go. They message me asking what is going on, and I feel like I owe them at least an explanation of my best understanding of what is going on with the U.S. trade policy. They are not going to get it anywhere else. So there is a lot of extra communication that comes into effect that is completely unrelated to the tax price. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. The President says that China will move TikTok to U.S. ownership, but he hasn't closed a deal. Instead, he paused the TikTok ban for 3 months. Do you feel whiplash from the constantly changing news? Mr. APPELL. Yeah. I mean, we don't know what is going to happen with the platform. As a creator and an artist, my reaction has been to put my head down and try to keep creating. But that could mean, if it is banned, I have just put more time and energy into a platform that is now destroyed. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Secretary Bessent says President Trump was willing to let TikTok go dark today. Does that scare you? Mr. APPELL. Yes. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Last year, Committee staff issued a report warning that AI-made content is unfairly crowding out human creators. Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter the report into the record. Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. How does AI slop compete with your content? Mr. APPELL. Sure. So the most basic thing is when you are on an app, which is primarily recommendation based, they have a mix of things that come up on that feed, and a lot of that stuff can be determined to be AI slop, or at the very least is perhaps not the best, like, you know, real creator content that is out there. That gums up the air waves. It makes a very bad user experience for people who are trying to watch quality media. And for some industries, it is much worse than others. I am here today as a tea guy, but I will say as a standup comedian, go and check when you see a standup video, check to see if it is the actual standup comedian posting. I would say 9 out of 10 times it is all stolen, and we work for a long time to get a couple jokes onto a TV show. To have that just stolen and repeated or to have the video on the top while somebody plays Subway Surfer on the bottom, you know, this is very discouraging to people who really want to put time and energy into making really good content. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Ms. Brennan, anything to add on AI risk for creators? Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you so much for that question. Yes. The content theft and dubbing over words is extremely dangerous. I represent a number of medical professionals, including a surgeon. At one point his content was taken and they dubbed over a completely different ad, were using it in whitelisting and targeting, and people were buying this product. Now, this was an overseas company selling it, so that adds additional complications. But that is dangerous. They know this doctor because he has millions of followers and he is a practicing surgeon. So, you know, that is a very, very big problem. I think AI can be helpful as well. When we are talking about content scraping from, you know--for children's sake, I think it can be a very, very helpful tool. But it has to have a human element to it, and it always has to be checked. Thank you. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Mr. Stauber from the great State of Minnesota for 5 minutes. Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, Chair Williams and Ranking Member Velazquez, for holding the hearing today, and all the witnesses for your testimony. In northern Minnesota, small businesses are the backbone of our economy, and many of these entrepreneurs are blending online content with traditional operations to expand their customer base, build brand recognition, and reach markets well beyond Minnesota's Eighth Congressional District. The digital economy isn't just about influencers in Los Angeles. It is the real estate agent in Brainerd, Minnesota, looking to reach new buyers. It is the photographer in Duluth who is looking to share their portfolio capturing the beauty of northern Minnesota. These creators are building something real, and like every other small business, they face red tape that Washington is too slow to recognize. Mr. Luciano, you have turned your platform into a full- fledged business. Can you talk about the biggest challenges to formalizing your operation, particularly in accessing capital? Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah. I mean, the biggest challenge as far as accessing capital is just education, the misrepresentation of what we do. So a lot of the times you are having to tell people that I am not just an influencer in it for clicks and likes, that I am actually like these small businesses in the squares. And just because you can't see it on a storefront doesn't mean we are not in our houses doing live streams and trying to build revenue. And luckily, I have partnered with CrowdSurf to explore the funding side of things, so I am taking investments in my business as well. So it has been really interesting to explore, and I am looking forward to actually having people in my back pocket to make them proud when I make Tratter House a flourishing company. Mr. STAUBER. Ms. Brennan, what risk do creators face when handling contracts and business deals on their own, and what protections do they need to avoid exploitation? Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you so much for that question. When creators start, it is not necessarily given that they have a business degree from Harvard. So there is a inherent lack of education in the creator economy, and they deserve to receive that education, whether that is through the platforms or something else. Education is fundamental to decision-making processes. You know, you have to be informed to be able to make the decision if you want to go forward or not and understand the implications that come to that. As far as management, oftentimes creators, especially when they are first starting, have not quite hit their revenue where it makes sense from a business perspective to pursue. So they are doing it on their own, and that can have longstanding implications to their business. Thank you. Mr. STAUBER. Thank you. I am glad you said you don't have to have a business degree from Harvard, because you are looking at two Lake Superior State University grads out of Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan. Ms. Moran, as not only a creator but someone who advises creators, are there specific legal or tax hurdles that disproportionately impact new digital entrepreneurs, especially those who are just starting to grow their digital business? Ms. MORAN. Thank you for the question. As Ms. Brennan said, I think a lot of times they think I need to have a manager to help me make a business and make more money, but they don't think of the legal implications of the contracts that they are signing or if there is a contract at all, especially when the tax season comes around. On Monday, the Q3 estimated taxes were due. I paid mine. I don't know if a lot of these creators know that they need to be doing that, and then come April, there is a really large tax bill that they are frightened by. And, you know, having advisers and people who can assist them in understanding what a business is--because as we said, a lot of them, they know they are small businesses. Even when they start out, once you start making money, you are a business, and I think we know that inherently. We don't necessarily think of, you know, the formalization of it, starting an LLC to protect their intellectual property, you know, having a lend-out company, who is the contracting party. A lot of them let their managers sign for them, which isn't necessarily bad, but having an understanding of what that means. Yeah, there is a lot of things to consider, honestly. Mr. STAUBER. With my last 50 seconds, I would like to take a quick poll of all of our entire panel. Within the last year, has your content creator business hired another small business to help your business in any way? Ms. Moran? Ms. MORAN. An accountant and employees. Mr. STAUBER. Ms. Brennan? Ms. BRENNAN. We have been established for a long time, so we do have parties we work with. We continue to expand our creator roster, which expands our business. Thank you. Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Luciano? Mr. LUCIANO. Yes. And I am proud to shout out my tax team, Decipher Financials. Mr. STAUBER. Perfect. Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah, because they have helped--they understand me as a creator to get my taxes right. Mr. STAUBER. Thank you. Mr. Appell? Mr. APPELL. Yes. We have been working with Rare Flower Media in Los Angeles for additional editing help and social media posting. Mr. STAUBER. Perfect. Good shout-out to those folks. Mr. APPELL. Represent. Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, all. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Ms. Scholten from the great State of Michigan for 5 minutes. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. And thank you so much to our incredible, young entrepreneurs for being here today. We recognize the work that you do is a part of generating not only important content but drawing others to incredible products that are already in the market. We know increasingly businesses rely on content creators to help elevate their products in the absence of a traditional advertising market space. You all can help get this content out to where it needs to be. As the mom of two pre-teen and teen boys, who are constantly telling me all about the latest trends that they see online, I can tell you, I know firsthand about the importance of your work. Ms. Appell [sic], I want to thank you for joining us here today and giving us an idea of what it is like to be a content creator in an ever-changing economic and social landscape. As social media continues to evolve with technology, I am curious about your thoughts on the use of Generative AI in content creation. We know Gen AI can be used to augment a wide variety of online content. Have you used or considered using Gen AI for your business, and are you concerned about the potential for Gen AI to pose unfair competition for human creators? Ms. MORAN. Are you speaking to me or to Ms. Brennan? Ms. SCHOLTEN. To you. Ms. MORAN. Me, okay. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah. Ms. MORAN. I just wanted to double-check. I have actually considered using AI in my business. I think sometimes there is a lot of concern with the open-source/close-source situation in a legal capacity. Actually, one of my associates was telling me about a new AI legal tool, so I have some research to do when I get back to my hotel room. But I think--yeah, I mean, I am not going to say I don't use ChatGPT or Claude. I do prefer Claude sometimes. I think it is just educating creators on not putting a full contract with personally identifying information into ChatGPT--no names, no addresses, company names, things like that. For creators using AI, I think making sure they understand where they are getting their information from and always checking sources when they get an output, making sure that the information that ChatGPT or whatever AI tool they are using is, you know, it is accurate and correct information. There is history of it making up case law or stories and facts. I think also for creators, I get clients asking me all the time, when I create content for my clients as a social media manager, can I use a Pinterest image in a graphic that I make? You know, they want to understand the licensing. I think understanding, most of us, when we sign up for a new account, we check, yes, we read the terms of service. None of us actually read the terms and conditions of anything, because they are really long, but I think making sure you understand what you are agreeing to. When CapCut changed the terms a couple months ago, you know, I created a video explaining what these terms of service changes are and what they mean for you as creators. And I think a lot of people are really upset by them, but no one has stopped using CapCut. So I think making sure you know what you are using. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah. Do you think--I want to stick on this question line just a second, because it is such a new and emerging technology. And I--you know, I agree with the gist of what you were saying, which is it can be such a helpful and important tool for content creators, but there is a lot of parameters and rules of the road people need to understand. Do you think content creators and young people in particular are getting the education they need around how best to use these tools, whether in school or, you know, is that potentially a lane for, you know, the SBA? Ms. MORAN. I think both. I think there is room for education from fellow creators. I think knowledge creators are a really growing community of creators. Professionals ourselves, we are content creators. That is how we market our services to other creators. I think having the SBA provide guidance, you know, resources, you know, having a database of experts to go to, not just lawyers and accountants but also, you know, an AI expert, someone explaining what these terms mean. But I think there is also--the issue is a lot of misinformation. There is, myself included, multiple creators, every single time a new status update changes or something, we are sharing what this actually means in a video, but then someone is discrediting us because they don't want that to be true. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah. Ms. MORAN. And I think, again, flagging ``is this correct information?'' is important. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Yeah. Thank you. My time is expiring here, but really, really appreciate your comments. Thank you. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri for 5 minutes. Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ranking Member Velazquez, for this important hearing. Today's hearing is about more than social media. It is about recognizing that digital creators are America's next generation of small business owners. Whether it is a farm family sharing their story on YouTube--we have several of those in my district, Missouri--a veteran teaching lessons on Instagram, or young entrepreneurs selling products online, creators are turning influence into real businesses that drive jobs and growth, some 1.5 million content creators in America. Social commerce projected to reach $2 trillion by 2026. But like many small businesses, they are running into barriers, from confusing tax rules to trouble accessing capital, simply because their income looks different on paper. Our job on this Committee is to make sure that Washington does not hold back innovation. Supporting creators is not about promoting trends. It is about empowering small business owners, like yourselves, who are driving economic growth in the digital age. My mom is 84 years old. She is in assisted living down in Houston, Texas, area, and we spend a lot of time on the phone now talking about her memories as a child. She talks a lot about the family sitting around listening and watching the radio, before there was television, and then her dad going to the town square to the radio store where they had just put a television in the window, and they would stand around and watch a test pattern. We have gone a remarkable way in the last 80 years in America. From the Founding Fathers, the money was in independent printing presses, then it transitioned to newspapers, then the money followed radio when it was invented, and then television and then cable, and now social media. And I look forward to telling my granddaughter, who is only 9 months old--her name is Naomi--about when social media came on to the scene and content creators and the difference that it made in our society and in our economy. So I applaud what you are doing. And I think our job here is to try to find ways that we can help you be even more successful than you are. It is an inspiration to me and I think the Chair and the Ranking Member and others on this Committee just the spirit of entrepreneurism that you guys have captured, that you have reached beyond the boundaries that some have been standing in your way to find a way to do business online, and seeking out these guardrails for protecting your business, to make more money, and to make sure that we stay in these lanes, especially with the advent of AI. So I just want to know, Ms. Brennan, how can we--there is a lot of generalities out there, but what do we need to be look-- we probably should have looked 10 years ago at this, but what can we do now to help you and the industry be even more successful for the economy of America and main street? Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you for that question. And I think it comes back to education. I think, you know, tax breaks are always helpful for new businesses that are starting and coming up, specifically creator-led businesses. If we are identifying these individuals--and they are--as the next generation of entrepreneurs, they deserve the same protections and education on how to grow. I think that is a really dynamic way. And then looking at it from perhaps the NIL standpoint, where there is a lot of marketing deals. And I am going to speak to marketing deals. I am not going to speak to the actual contracts with the universities. Right now, it is not a national registration for agents. Right now, it is segmented by the States and it varies, and it becomes costly for small businesses. For the big guys, it is no problem, but you start adding up those bills and start swiping those credit cards and it adds up. These athletes deserve to be protected. However, you know, let's kind of avoid the barriers to entry that aren't necessary. Thank you. Mr. ALFORD. Thank you very much. Mr. Luciano, appreciate your work. I have seen a little bit online. What drives you to do this? You said you wanted to give something back, you wanted to make a difference. Expound on that just a little bit. Mr. LUCIANO. For me, I refer to the younger you principle. When I was 16 years old, I really struggled with my mental health. And I go around to FFA events across the country, and I speak to 16-year-olds on the daily. And to see them do what I want to do is amazing, but I also want to protect them and their mental health, and as these ladies were saying, the misinformation that can be harmful. So I just want to put a good message out into the world and protect these kids as they take in this media. Mr. ALFORD. Well, thank you. There is a lot of hate out there right now, especially after last week. And I applaud what you are doing. Thank you. God bless you. And I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mrs. McIver from the great State of New Jersey for 5 minutes. Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much, Chairman, and thank you to the Ranking Member. Thank you so much for holding this hearing. I want to thank our witnesses today for joining us. Online content creators are not just influencers. They are entrepreneurs, job creators, innovators, and small business owners. They deal with money management, taxes, compliance, and marketing engagement like any other business. But they face unique challenges, as we have heard already from some of our testimony today, unique challenges when their primary storefronts are intangible online platforms. Content creation can often make or break a small business. Congress must identify where federal policy can help creators operate on a level playing field, protect their business revenues, and compete fairly in a consolidated and often crazy online marketplace. With that, we heard some testimony from Mr. Appell about how the tariffs have, you know, definitely disrupted your regular, normal process. And I am sorry to hear that, especially when you talk about $250,000, that is a lot of money, and even the unsettledness of where your business is going and how to plan for that. I would love to hear more from some of the other panel members. Based on your experience, how have the tariffs impacted content creators' ability to maintain product quality, affordable pricing, and customer satisfaction? We can start at the end. Ms. MORAN. For me, I am in the service-based business and my clients as well, digital content creation, but I think access to personal capital. You know, income isn't coming in. Money isn't going as far as it used to, so not having the ability to hire service professionals to guide them. I heard from a lot of my creator friends. They, you know, filed their own taxes this year instead of hiring an accountant last year. Hopefully things went well. We won't know until, you know, refunds come through or things like that. Yeah, I just don't think money is going as far as it used to, and so people are skipping steps where they can--to cut costs. And I understand that, but it is also worrisome. You know, people don't want to hire a lawyer to read their contracts, but these are really bad contracts. Sometimes they are very one-sided. They are very favorable to the marketing agencies or to the brands directly if they are the contracting party. So I think, you know, skipping steps is dangerous. Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you. Ms. Brennan? Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you. With the tariffs came uncertainty, and I think it is going to go back to education and how to mitigate risk as a business owner because, again, that is what these people are, they are business owners. How do you mitigate risk? How do you have multiple streams of income coming from everywhere? And again, I will hit on it again. It is about the creators I don't manage, the creators that maybe don't have a manager in their corner with, you know, tons of different services. As far as the tariffs and small businesses, I did hear from one small business that due to the, I guess you could say the exit of two very, very big ad buyers, it actually led to less competition as far as ad buying and ad auction, giving them a really interesting opportunity to grow. And if we can build off of that in a very unique way, right, hiring more influencers and local creators and things like that, I think that is a home run. So, yes, tariffs definitely cause uncertainty, and I can't say what the impact will be year-to-date, but, again, it is going to go back to education and mitigating risk as a business owner. Thank you. Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much. Mr. Luciano? Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah. For me, I have built my brand, and we go around the country. We set up booths from FFA events to the NFR, and just over the years, we have had to hike up prices. So we see people come by the booth and go, $40 for a cap? No way. When I used to be able to sell it for $29 4 years ago, right. So it has just been me seeing the prices hike up, and then, in turn, that affects my top line, and then I am not able to, you know, reinvest as much as I can back into that revenue stream. Mrs. MCIVER. Yeah. Thank you so much for that. Anything you want to add to that? I know you already spent some time talking about it, but anything else you might want to add, I would love to hear. Mr. APPELL. Sure. I would just like to add, I mean, I came to tea through being a full-bred scholar in China and drinking tea and meeting tea farmers there and speak Chinese. For me, this is not a matter of, oh, if the market is cheaper to sell Japanese tea or Indian tea, oh, we will just switch it. On paper, you might be able to do that, and maybe to the country it will look on paper like there is a similarity between the business. For me, that would be not only just a total upheaval of my life, and I would have to learn Japanese, but it is also-- again, spiritually, the best part of being a creator is I get to chase what I really care about, and I get to do it with the people that I love, and I get to do it with the people who have been good to me, and I can be good to them, and sometimes they are in China. Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you so much for sharing, to each of you. With that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. And now I recognize Mr. LaLota from the great State of New York for 5 minutes. Mr. LALOTA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your leadership on this issue. Ms. Moran, how are you doing? Ms. MORAN. Good. How are you? Mr. LALOTA. Good. My memo here says that the internet content creation industry is a $250 billion industry as of 2023, but it is expected to grow to $500 billion by 2030. And you are an attorney who represents a lot of internet content creators? Ms. MORAN. Yes. Most of my clients are talent directly or talent management agencies, like Ms. Brennan here. So there are hundreds of creators and hundreds of talent managers in this country, and there is a lot of money circulating. Mr. LALOTA. Yeah. And about what kind of content do they often create? Ms. MORAN. Anything from fashion and beauty to educational content, mental health, sports, anything. It could be anything you want. Mr. LALOTA. Cool. And on what platforms do they usually place this content? Ms. MORAN. I think the majority of creators use your main three: TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. But there is Twitch, streamers, gamers. There is--I can't think of any right now. I am blanking. Lemon 8, which is owned by ByleDance as well. Facebook is still a primary source for some companies. Yeah, there is--Pinterest is another one. There are several. Mr. LALOTA. This hearing is enlightening for me because I didn't realize how big this industry is, and you four are able to tell us exactly how big it is and where it reaches and whatnot. I take it that because you are an attorney, you probably don't work for free? Ms. MORAN. No, I do not. Mr. LALOTA. Good. Good for you. You should charge. Nevertheless, so the clients that pay you, they are profitable too. They are paying taxes. They are feeding their families. They are contributing to society? Ms. MORAN. I would hope so. Mr. LALOTA. Good. Ms. MORAN. I always advise them to do so, yes. Mr. LALOTA. Smart. That wasn't a trick question, I promise. Ms. Brennan, I really want to spend my time talking to you about the New York Yankees, the greatest sports franchise we have ever seen on the face of this Earth. I am going to try to stay a little focused here and not spend my time on that. But knowing how economically viable the industry that you are involved in is, when a entrepreneur's content gets stolen or copied, how damaging could it be to that person's ability to operate as a small business? Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you so much for that question. It can be extraordinarily damaging. I gave the example of a surgeon who had his content stolen, and it was used by a offshore brand to sell a supplement that wasn't even third-party tested. He got DMs from people who follow him saying they bought it because they saw he endorsed it. And that is scary. So that is a very, very, very big issue, because that is not just an issue of, you know, credibility; that is an issue that maybe has safety implications. So those situations should be, you know, thought of in high regard. Thank you. Mr. LALOTA. Great. So when an individual's work product gets stolen, it is damaging to the individual. What about the rest of the industry? Does it have a chilling effect on the rest of the industry? Do people then want to put less resources into creating the content because they anticipate, perhaps reasonably, that their stuff is going to be stolen? Ms. BRENNAN. That is a great question, and I don't necessarily have a full answer for you. What I can say is, from a consumer standpoint, if we are seeing content that is stolen with AI dubbing, and there are no disclosures, that is a big issue. So from a consumer standpoint, when we go to purchase products, what is it doing to that consumer's psyche? Is it real? Is it fake? I believe right now as far as the disclosures go, they are optional for the parties using it, but as a consumer, I would like to know if something is heavily edited using AI. I would like to know if it is a CGI influencer who are taking brand deals that are valued at a lot of money when they are not real people or groups of people, and that needs to be clearly disclosed. Mr. LALOTA. Great. Mr. Appell, I am going to go to you now. Mr. APPELL. Yes. Mr. LALOTA. What are you drinking over there? Mr. APPELL. I am drinking ancient tree red tea with roses in it from Yunnan, China. It is great. Mr. LALOTA. You are welcome. I know you did the---- Mr. APPELL. I can make you some if you would like. Mr. LALOTA. I wanted to make sure we got the YouTube version of it. Mr. APPELL. Thank you. Mr. LALOTA. Tell me, piggybacking on what I just said before, how does a lack of consistent right of publicity protection leave small creators especially vulnerable? Mr. APPELL. Yes. So my business is called Jesse's Teahouse. So one of the reasons I did that is because it is very hard to fake Jesse. I make the tea myself. I show the farmers we work with. All of these things really are antipiracy ways of going about business. You know, I learned definitely from my career as a comedian online the content will be stolen. The question is not whether it will be stolen. The question is when they steal the content, does it help your business or hurt you? If people decide to steal Jesse's Teahouse videos with Jesse hosting, they are really kind of advertising for me. But this was a long workaround that it took really a decade of dealing with a very leaky rights protection system for creators that led me to figure out this very specific way I could try to protect my rights without any additional regulation. Mr. LALOTA. Great. Thanks. Mr. APPELL. Thank you. Mr. LALOTA. Mr. Luciano, great that you are here. My time has expired. Thanks for being here, sir. I yield. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Dr. Conaway from the great State of New Jersey for 5 minutes. Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you, Messrs. and Mrs. for--not Mrs. Mrs.? Anyway, thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for presenting yourself here today and giving very important information at least to yours truly who is not involved very much with social media at all, believe it or not. But it has not passed me by exactly, but I don't spend a lot of time there because I don't have that much time, but I am glad you are doing very well at the work that you are doing, and clearly it is work that you love doing, and it is always nice to hear from people who are enjoying their work. One of the things that struck me as I listened to your comments as small business persons and understanding the environment in which we all operate today, how has Big Tech, if you will, how does that impact you? And do you have some suggestions about how we defend your space and your purchase in this economy? Anybody can take it. That is a round-robin question. Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah, I will go for it. I like to specifically speak to like Meta and how these certain platforms offer verification processes through our actual identity and through our government paperwork, but when--specifically me, there are thousands of fake accounts of me, but I am paying this platform with my government ID to say that I am who I say I am. So when I report an account, why isn't it not taken down immediately? So that is one of the big things where I was like, you know, people are DM-ing me about crazy things that have happened from a fake profile of mine. Mr. CONAWAY. So more focus by the Justice Department, I presume, on this kind of trade violation, I suppose. Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah. Yeah, it is just very easy to steal someone's content. Mr. CONAWAY. Ms. Moran? Ms. MORAN. Yes. To piggyback off that, I think also there is a lot of disincentivizing of creators disclosing with the FTC guidelines that they are monetizing their content because the platforms don't push it out. So not only is there fake accounts being made and harassment and bullying, but also creators don't want to put these disclosures on, that they are contractually obligated to do so and legally obligated to do so, because then the content won't get pushed out and then the views won't be as high and then they might not hit the targets that the contract set to get bonus money. So Big Tech disincentivizing disclosures is a big issue. I think also these big companies, not just tech but any big company, there is this trend of monopolization. So these contracts are very one-sided. They are very unfavorable to the small businesses, to the creators. And, again, there is not a lot of education on what these contract terms mean. Also, arbitration. A lot of these contracts have arbitration clauses in it instead of a mediation clause or suing in small claims court. These contracts are not that big. Some of them are. Some of them can be very lucrative, but a lot of times being lucrative is at volume. But these deals are, for the most part, 2 to 5 to 10 to $20,000, and arbitration is just not feasible at that point. Mr. CONAWAY. That is another issue. Ms. Brennan, just quickly, if you can, because I do want to get to another question. Ms. BRENNAN. So I like the saying, if you can't play nice, you can't play at all. So these companies that are stealing this data, and perhaps they didn't know, right. Let's assume the positive and they didn't know. Have some sort of step and education where they have to complete it. Similarly to, you know, if you commit a crime, you have to go through some sort of program, right. And if you can't play nice, you can't play at all because this is a serious issue. Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you. Mr. Appell? Mr. APPELL. Yes. And just really briefly on that. I think the algorithm and the lack of control about what legally you can do with a recommendation algorithm is something that can be looked at. I have 1.5 million followers, but there is no law that says they have to show my video to anyone. I have worked on it for years to build the accounts, but will they show it? Maybe not. Additionally, if, you know, any given tech company realizes that they make marginally more money showing coffee videos rather than tea videos, they could just only show coffee videos and never show tea videos, and I would never know. I have to work endlessly hoping they show it. Mr. CONAWAY. And just for the record, you know, hate speech has been mentioned. It is certainly something that is top of mind. Many persons in minority communities face discrimination online. If they say something that is unpopular or perceived as being unpopular, the Big Tech companies, those who are sort of controlling access to the world digitally, can censor them, quite frankly. Have any of you experienced hate speech or censorship in the things that you have been doing? And thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana for 5 minutes. Mr. DOWNING. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here. You know, this is an exciting topic for me. You are coming out of technology. This has been something that we have been talking about since my formative years. And my last job before I was in Congress, I was a regulator of the insurance and securities industries in the State of Montana, and artificial intelligence, machine learning, big data all became a big part of the conversation on how we make use of this as a tool and understand really where, you know, reasonable sideboards are so you inspire and, you know, invoke innovation in the United States of America. Make sure that we continue to be innovators there but understanding what the implications are, and some of these conversations have just been really, really intriguing. You know, a couple of top line comments. Artificial intelligence is really set to transform the whole scope of the American economy, you know, including revolutionizing how business owners invest in their ventures, employ workers, manufacture products, and, you know, as I mentioned before, even, you know, how it rates insurance. There are so many opportunities there, and a lot of folks are, you know, excited about the opportunity but concerned about what it means, because a lot of folks just want to be able to look into that black box. And, you know, I always say, well, once that black box has an N equals infinity matrix, you know, network in there, how does any human understand it. So there are interesting problems before us. Ms. Moran, in your testimony, you discussed the growing role that artificial intelligence will play in the digital creator economy. Notably, you highlight some AI-associated challenges that online content creators face in forwarding their brands, including, you know, deepfakes and account hacking. So with computing and machine learning capabilities set to become more and more powerful in the coming years, how do you think online small businesses and creators are positioned to deal with these AI-associated challenges going forward? Ms. MORAN. Thank you. I think as we have all said, education, and I think disclosure, disclosing that AI is being used and in what capacity it is being used, to the extent. Having a percentage of how much AI can be used or how much is inputted versus output. I mean, I don't know how feasible that really is, but I think education and disclosure are primary things with deepfakes. I know there are countries, in Europe primarily passing copyright laws. Denmark passed a law that you could copyright your face, basically, so they can't make deepfakes. I don't know if that is feasible here but some sort of regulations. Mr. DOWNING. So I am glad you brought up, you know, foreign countries. So from your experience, what foreign countries and actors are the most culpable for promulgating malicious activities like hacking and spam accounts and, you know, target online creators? Ms. MORAN. I think there is a big--I don't know if I necessarily want to call out specific countries, but there are countries that are associated with bot followers. So a lot of times companies or people will maliciously purchase followers for an account that they want to blow up to then try to steal the account, or, you know, I will offer you $500,000 to buy your account from you, and, you know, you have to--you should sell it because now it is no longer yours. Mr. DOWNING. Right. Ms. MORAN. And so that is a business model that also needs regulation, but a lot of times these followers are coming from who knows where. Mr. DOWNING. Right. So despite these challenges, the growing power of AI also has incredible potential to assist entrepreneurs as well, including those based online. So what do you think could be some positive developments that could come from AI that could help digital creators generate better content to better compete in the online economy? Ms. MORAN. Efficiency. AI is a great tool for efficiency. You know, I have friends who have created tech apps with closed source AI tools where I can upload a video. It can watch my video and create a script for me---- Mr. DOWNING. Thank you. Ms. MORAN.--instead of me sitting and scripting out the video itself. So things like that are really helpful. Mr. DOWNING. Thank you. Ms. Brennan, from your experience managing your clients' online presence, what has your experience been with AI? How has it factored into your firm's business strategy and operations? Ms. BRENNAN. I think that is a great and multifaceted answer. As far as the pros, it can, you know, detect, you know, potentially harmful content as far as the user experience, so that is great. We want everyone safe online, including our children. And then as far as efficiency and accessibility, that is quite helpful if you are a small business and you don't have the resources to, you know, produce more jobs at the time. As far as cons, the fake AI influencers, that is scary, and the content theft and dubbing over people's name, image, and likeness and creating false ads with faulty supplements--and I can go on and on with that--that needs to be regulated. There has got to be clear disclosures, and when there is a concern, it has to be escalated and escalated quickly to remedy that. Mr. DOWNING. Right. Unfortunately, I have run out of time, but I really appreciate you all participating. And I yield my time, Mr. Chair. Ms. KING-HINDS. [Presiding.] Thank you. I now recognize Ms. Goodlander from New Hampshire for 5 minutes. Ms. GOODLANDER. Madam Chair, thank you. To our witnesses, I just want to thank you so much for being here today. I know you are not doing it for the 'gram. And I have a confession to make. Herb and I had to Google what that meant, but now we know, and we know you are not doing it for the 'gram. You are doing it for America. And so I am farming your aura, another phrase I didn't know about until today, so thank you for that. Because you are talking about freedom; you are talking about fairness; you are talking about public safety in the most important arena of the present and the future, and that is the digital world. Much of what has been discussed today really cuts across small businesses across our country. You know, you have talked about the high cost of doing business both because of regulatory red tape, and I am making lists and taking names. You show me red tape. Let's work together to cut it. That is why I am on this Committee. You have talked about the high cost of lawless trade wars, and I want to thank you, Mr. Appell--am I pronouncing that right? Mr. APPELL. Appell. Ms. GOODLANDER. Appell. Jesse. Mr. APPELL. Yes. Ms. GOODLANDER.--for quantifying just part of the invoice that you are paying as a result of these trade wars. We have got a bill, the Small Business Liberation Act, that would protect small businesses from these lawless trade wars, and, look, this is basic fairness. You shouldn't be paying this kind of tax, and it is especially ironic for someone who has got a tea shop, because we all know how this great experiment, the United States of America, began. But I want to say, you know, the creator economy, when we talk about the creator economy, Ms. Brennan, you mentioned 77 percent of small businesses use social media. I agree with you. That is, I would think, a real undercount, and I see it every day on this job. You know, I was in a great town in my district, Littleton, New Hampshire. I met a fellow millennial who owns a small business called Tailswag, and it is an amazing--it is right on main street in Littleton, New Hampshire. It is a pet boutique, a treat bar. I had never been to a small business quite like this. You know, she has used social media so effectively, and I will give you all a pitch. Dachtoberfest is happening. Littleton, New Hampshire, October 4, 11 a.m. to 3 p.m. She advertised this on the 'gram, among other social media platforms. And as a direct result of this one post, we saw a booming business in Littleton, New Hampshire. It is a win, win, win. Everyone wins when these platforms can be used to the effect that we all want to see them being used for. Now, I came to Congress having worked in the Department of Justice in the Antitrust Division. So I spent a lot of time thinking about the harms and abuses of power we see from Big Tech monopolists. And, you know, you have touched on so many today, but I really want to invite you--and I am going to be sending you, I hope it is okay, questions for the record, because there is so much in your testimony that I think we could really benefit from in this Committee. But I wanted to just put the question out. You know, part of the challenge with Big Tech monopolists is they are really these days getting to make big decisions about who gets heard and who gets paid and how much. And I just--I want to throw this out to the panel. And I am sorry I have taken up so much time in my questions because I am just so grateful that you are here, and I hope we can stay in close touch. When you think about--you mentioned there are many methods of being paid, but when you think about how Big Tech gatekeepers, Big Tech monopolists are actually controlling the purse strings and controlling the microphones, what would you point us to as your top priorities for barriers that you are facing that you really believe Congress has got to tackle? Ms. MORAN. I can start. I think payment terms. I think, a lot of these payment terms are net 60 and net 90, meaning creators aren't being paid for 2 or 3 months after the work, if they even get paid at all. I think having thresholds. Maybe if it is under a certain amount, it needs to be net 30. I don't know. There are so many different ways that this could be framed, but having some sort of regulation on payment terms would be really, really helpful. And I think also having, you know, in our termination clauses that if the creator terminates for whatever reason--life happens, things happen-- force majeure clauses and pro rata shares in our termination clauses are really helpful. I think also indemnification clauses, limitations of liability, caps on damages. Creators are small businesses. We can't go up against a Big Tech company and have unlimited damages. We don't have that money. Ms. GOODLANDER. And you don't have an army of lawyers to do it. Ms. MORAN. No. Ms. GOODLANDER. Well, my time has passed, but I want to thank you all and really look forward to working with you. Chairman WILLIAMS. [Presiding.] The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Ms. King-Hinds from the Northern Mariana Islands, the great Northern Mariana Islands for 5 minutes. Mrs. KING-HINDS. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair and Ranking Member, and Hafa Adai. So I credit my election to my relationship with social media influencers. I come from the island of Tinian, and the island of Tinian has one of the smallest population in the Northern Mariana Islands. And no one from my island ever wins a commonwealth-wide election. I am the first, and I credit that, basically, to the work that was put in by Palm Treo. I have to give them a shout-out because they totally helped out. And I also had the privilege of hosting the first ever Palm Treo social media awards. And this is where I kind of learned, you know, the value and the importance and all the work that goes behind content creating. And as I sit here and as I listen to what Ms. Goodlander was talking about, right, you know, just the intricacies of these conversations, and I think about the social media influencers back home who are struggling to go, you know, from having an online presence into actually developing a sustainable business, and as I tie in Mr. Luciano's statement about, you know, just the challenge in terms of classification, right, and what all this means with regards to regulations, IRS taxes, and so that is the kind of conversation that I want to have with all of you today. And I want to hear more from you, Ms. Moran, because you are an attorney and, obviously, you have helped a lot of these people get through some of these legal hurdles. And so if you could just start off by kind of sharing, you know, what are those--what are a couple of the top barriers that these entries to the market are--that Congress can assist with in terms of regulations? Ms. MORAN. Thank you. I think to Nick's point earlier about not knowing how to classify yourself on a cap table, I think a lot of times the mindset of an entrepreneur as a small business, once you start making money, you are now a business. So I think having them have guidance from the SBA and other organizations. You know, access to lawyers who can help them draft an operating agreement or file for their LLC. Knowing what address to put on an LLC, because some States don't let you put a P.O. box, but you don't want your address publicly out there because for mental health and safety concerns. So I think having guidance on when and how to formalize a business could be really helpful. Ms. KING-HINDS. Okay. How about we just move down the line and get your thoughts on the matter. Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you. Yeah, I would agree with Ms. Moran. Education is a huge component to this. You know, how do you classify yourself? It is for the people who don't have access to all the things a management firm may bring--attorneys, accountants, things like that. So really education on what they can do to build their business would be crucial. Thank you. Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah, I will touch on what Kayla said, but just classifying yourself. Like, there were no resources for me to understand in order to go from once I am making money to this threshold to now I am making this amount of money, okay, I need to be classified as an S corp and pay myself a proper payroll, right. So I had to learn all of that myself. And then I have had to seek out resources to understand what I am actually trying to do. So that is why my whole accountant team, their entire team just works with creators alone, because I have actually had the other--my other accountant team, they didn't know how to classify me, and I had to go re-amend all my taxes from the past couple of years. So those are some challenges I face as a creator. Mr. APPELL. Thank you, Congresswoman. I agree with everything that they have said as well. I would add an extra loop, an extra element to this. I sell a physical item, and so I sell my tea in every State in the country. You know, even in like, you know, big cities, you would be surprised how hard it is to find really good Chinese tea. So that means that I have to pay State sales tax in every State in the country. That means a separate registration in every State income tax board. I hire a third-party company to do this, which is just a total loss to the business in terms of the processing fee that I need to pay them to be able to register 50 different times. Some are quarterly. Some are every year. Some are, you know, biannually. There are different definitions of what makes a nexus of sales that requires me to register. Every State has different amounts that you have to pass before you have to register. It is a very confusing system, and I am not sure federally what can be done about that, but as a small business who is trying to pay their State sales taxes, it is incredibly difficult. And if I didn't, basically, just pay somebody else to solve that problem for me, there is absolutely no way I could do it. Ms. KING-HINDS. All right. I am about to run out of time, but before I do, I want to give a shout-out to Zori Talks and Eddie C who are amazing content creators from the CNMI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield my time. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. I now ask Mr. Olszewski from the great State of Maryland for 5 minutes. Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Chairman Williams. I want to thank our Ranking Member Velazquez, and to our witnesses, for your time today. It is truly exciting to be with you to discuss the social media landscape that has led many Americans to entrepreneurial adventures beyond their wildest dreams. Back home in Maryland's Second, local social media accounts like Marianne Mehrer's Home Sweet Baltimore are helping to contribute to the success of businesses in our region. Marianne provides amazing real estate advice through her content while also shouting out some great small businesses that stimulate Maryland's economy. Douglas Clayton has a Charm City Food Adventures account that uplifts local restaurants and food festivals. And these are the constituents, like all of you, who are creating business opportunities for themselves while also boosting brick and mortar businesses and small businesses in our district. It is such a positive thing. But we know that as these industries arise, the federal government has to make sure that we are working harder to support and protect our constituents from the harms that can and do exist online. As the father of a young daughter who just started fourth grade this year, I am especially acutely aware of the dangers that our children are exposed to online in particular. In Maryland, our State police have launched the Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force, alongside 61 task forces across the nation. They have partnered with State, local, and federal law enforcement on a month-long initiative to combat online child exploitation. The task force has initiated 595 investigations, resulting in 41 arrests and 17 child victims rescued from ongoing abuse. While it is horrific that resources even need to be used to combat these crimes, there is no excuse not to battle this epidemic head-on in a bipartisan way. So I look forward to advancing bipartisan legislation that works to protect everyone online, both from crimes as well as the hate speech which is so pervasive today. We know the web is a powerful tool that can connect Americans in positive ways, and that is needed now more than ever. So with that, I will ask a question of all the panelists, and I hope I can save time for one other issue for Ms. Moran. But I just want to ask everyone, what actions might you recommend Congress take that can both help us better protect children from being exposed to violence, harassment, hate speech, and more, while also ensuring that you can do your jobs and grow your businesses effectively? I think there is a balance to be struck, but we want to be doing both. So I just want to open it up for the panel. Mr. APPELL. I think from my perspective, I really like the idea of saying--you know, looking at the internet as a village, and if somebody breaks the law in the village once, do you let them create another account? Do you let them create another hundred accounts? Do you have some sort of thing that they have to go through where they recognize the problem that they had with the first account and with the first speech before they are able to go on and then continue to speak? I think different issues should be dealt with differently, but I like the idea of having the internet be full of people that are, you know, being righteous actors. And if there are people that are problematic actors, that they are just not allowed right back onto the internet immediately with no problem after they have been caught. Mr. LUCIANO. I would say for me it starts with, like, the parents at home, with really just filtering the amount of screen time that kids have because that can--down the line, especially because I am really big into mental health, that can, you know, carry down through generations. So just starting with the parents and really educating on what it means to limit screen time and--yeah. Ms. BRENNAN. Yeah, I would agree with Mr. Appell. Repeat offenders cannot be on those platforms. If there is an issue, whether it is dealing with a child or whether it is dealing with an adult getting harassed, and there is, you know, a process where it goes through discovery beyond just AI, because I know some of the platforms just look at AI and there is no human interaction, that needs to be dealt with, and it needs to be dealt with and addressed by another human being. It can't just be banned, here we go, we are done. Maybe some intervention further than that would be helpful. Thank you. Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Ms. Moran, in addition to your answer on this, if you can also respond to--I know that you have called the TikTok ban and President Trump's repeated short-term delays an emotional roller coaster. In your 30 seconds, if you can both answer that question and elaborate on what you mean by that roller coaster. Ms. MORAN. Sure. I think the Coogan laws--you know, States like California, Utah, Illinois have passed Coogan laws for child performers having trust accounts. Parents have to put a percentage away that is in a trust for children that when they turn 18 they can access. We have seen this a lot with actors like Jennette McCurdy from iCarly. You know, when her mom passed away, she got access to her income and realized that it was all gone. Her parents took it. And she is not the only one. Children performers', family vlog channels are very popular on YouTube and TikTok, and these creators are being exploited by their own parents for money, and they are not getting to see any of that. So I think federalizing Coogan laws or incentivizing States to pass Coogan-type laws would be really, really helpful. And then with the TikTok ban, I think--I mean, Jesse and Nick have said it too, but it hurts not knowing, you know, can I post content today? Is anyone going to see it? You know, not knowing that TikTok got pushed back, I created a lot of content during the ban in December and January. I was abroad. I was in Europe, and I was waking up early to talk about it. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman's time is up. Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you for that. I thank the Chairman for his indulgence. Chairman WILLIAMS. Next, I now recognize Mr. Jack from the great State of Georgia for 5 minutes. Mr. JACK. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I want to commend you and the staff of this incredible Committee on convening this hearing. It is exciting. As a member of the generation of many of our panelists, it is exciting to see you all accomplishing incredible things. And I am curious. One of the questions I would love to start with is, as somebody who obviously follows, you know, content creators that are working to generate small business leads for people across my community, I am interested in talking about search engine optimization. I am interested in learning how you all navigate that. So we can go down the line, and we will start with Ms. Moran. I would love for you to explain to this Committee how you navigate the topic of SEO. Ms. MORAN. Thank you. I mean, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for SEO. You know, Danielle found me through Instagram, and now Instagram is searchable. When you Google someone, you know, whatever was in the caption of your post or your video on Instagram now comes up on Google. That was recent as of like I think 2 weeks ago. So I think, you know, platforms are starting to understand that search engine optimization is not just for small businesses and marketing of products and service-based businesses but also creator content, because there is a lot of really great education, and there are a lot of really great businesses using social media because it is cost-effective. It is more affordable for businesses to use digital marketing than traditional multimillion dollar productions and commercials. Mr. JACK. Wonderful. Thank you. Please. Ms. BRENNAN. I think we are seeing the rise of blogging again, which is an interesting platform that kind of took a little bit of a break. And as there is more competition in SEO, it will become costlier. So going back to education and resources, as well as funding for these small businesses will help them compete in an ever-growing landscape. Mr. JACK. On what platforms are you seeing that expansion of blogging? Is it now that X has long-form posts, or are you seeing it in different--I mean, it used to be Tumblr, but I am curious what it is now. Ms. BRENNAN. That is a great question. So there is SEO on the platforms and then there is traditional blogs. So a lot of these creators have their own websites where they are SEO-ing various things. And Substack, yes. Thank you. Substack as well. Mr. JACK. Sure. Thank you. Please. Mr. LUCIANO. So me personally, as a creator, I rely more on SEO with optimizing my landing pages for where I am trying to drive traffic, but as far as online creation, I am really in the space of like audience retention. So I build my platforms as far as like strong hooks, ping points, et cetera, going down to the bare bones of marketing. So the SEO for me is literally just trying to optimize my pages of where I am driving traffic online. But organically, I want people to connect with me with strong hooks, ping points, resolutions, calls to actions, stuff like that. Mr. JACK. Helpful context. Please. Mr. APPELL. Yes. Thank you, Congressman, for your question. I agree with Mr. Luciano. I feel like as a creator, if I do a really good job of making awesome content, making videos, sharing what I know and what I care about, that those people will fight through bad searches to find my website. But if I just have a mediocre--mediocre at everything, SEO will not save me. Now, that is kind of my mentality. I don't know if that is literally true, like, in the numbers, but I think that is a healthy mentality to have as a creator, to try to focus on the video. We do do SEO now, especially as the business has gotten bigger, to try to get more people who may have seen a video of mine once on a train 7 months ago and now they want tea. You know, that can help that person find my website if they have already had a real interaction with me online. But I think that as a business owner, you are asking--I would be asking a lot of SEO to convert somebody who has like never seen me, doesn't know the brand, doesn't know the tea. That is not really how I would look to use it. I think it is that final push to get somebody who already does know you up to the top of the list. Mr. JACK. Wonderful. And I have got just a minute left. So I am curious, on an analytics perspective, if you could share with the Committee, are you using Google Trend? What analytic structure are you using to help at least see how successful your advertising has been? And we can start with you and go as far as we can. Ms. MORAN. I mean, each platform has its own analytics tools. I think Google Alerts are great to see, you know, what people are searching for and what comes up when they are searching. But I have a newsletter on beehiiv, and beehiiv has really great analytics for email open rates and, you know, click rates within an email, but each platform has its own tools. Mr. JACK. Thank you. Ms. BRENNAN. Yeah, I think it is really important to look at the platform specifically, but I do want to voice that there are aggregate platforms that companies can buy, and I hate to say it but a lot of times they are wrong. So businesses are then getting this data, and it is based on things that aren't correct. So there is another, I guess you could say, issue that needs to be addressed there. Thank you. Mr. JACK. Thank you. Please. Mr. LUCIANO. My bread and butter has always been audience retention, so I look at retention curves and I look at, you know--I mean, TikTok specifically has done a great job of including more analytics of where we can improve our videos. Mr. JACK. Thank you. Lastly. Mr. APPELL. Yeah. I also look at creator--like, the interaction. If I am getting great comments from people that really care about what I am talking about, I kind of hope that the rest of it is going well. But, you know, in terms of raw analytics, I use the Google Analytics platform. Mr. JACK. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, I think this is a great hearing. I appreciate you for convening it, and I yield back my time. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Schmidt for 5 minutes. Mr. SCHMIDT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you for convening this, thank the witnesses, and express my apologies for my late arrival. It wasn't a lack of interest. I will never get back the last 5 hours of my life in the Judiciary Committee with Director Patel. And it was a--let's just say I am in the mindset where sort of the darkness of human nature is currently on my mind. So this is uplifting. Tea would do it. That would be fantastic, yeah. Although Kash would say it is spiked with something we imported from China. So, you know, it is a whole different deal. So sort of in that spirit, let me ask you a question. It is kind of the flip side of what our colleague from Maryland asked you. He asked you your initial thoughts using the illustration of child exploitation and ICAC work online, you know, what can be done to make things safe. Let me ask you the flip side of that. One of the things the Director said to us repeatedly today in multiple contexts--and it wasn't an internet hearing. It was a wide-ranging around the world, and yet he came back I think four or five times when asked, you know, what is the one thing we could do in Congress that would make America safer. And he said, give us more eyes and tools to find bad guys doing bad things online. It was a constant theme. Let's assume for the sake of discussion we take that advice and try to figure out from very smart people what things we could do that would be helpful. From your vantage point, what should we be keeping in mind so that we don't throw the baby out with the bath water, kill the goose that laid the golden egg--pick the metaphor that you want--but so we don't foul up the good things you are doing online while we are trying to address the really awful things a lot of folks are doing online? We can just go down the line. Mr. APPELL. I may have a little unconventional angle on this because I spent 10 years in China doing Chinese social media. And in China, political interests were always the thing that was dictating what the people who are regulating the internet were doing. It wasn't business. It wasn't art. It was politics. And so I think finding a way that if we have the eyes and the ears to be able to go and catch bad people on the internet, that it can be done in a data-forward way as opposed to a politics-forward way. And make sure that those tools are used and people know that they are being adjudicated fairly and not because of any given political cycle. Thank you. Mr. LUCIANO. I will actually give you an interesting story on this topic of the bad guys. My dad was robbed. I am from Maryland. My dad lives in Maryland, and his Side-by-Side was stolen. And me as a creator, I went to the internet and was like, hey, this is the footage. This is what happened. And literally the entire--I am from Cecil County, Maryland. Cecil County came together through comments and through--like singular comments of people going to work at 4 a.m. in the morning, I saw that Side-by-Side riding down the road. And through that we were able to catch the guy. So I think things like that are really great, and social media has that community aspect where, even if it is not regulated, like, single comments can help things like that go a long way to catch the bad guys. Ms. BRENNAN. Thank you. And I think there was a documentary around cats that did something similar where there were internet sleuths around there. I won't say the name of the documentary. You will have to look that one up. But as far as, you know, using AI for good, scraping is wonderful, because if we can catch these guys before the content even airs, and I am talking about explicit images, things that have to do with children, I mean, that is a win. Now, the guidelines need to be clear and explicit. So that is a very, very, very important factor in this sort of, I guess you could say, content policing and, you know, the safety of our kids. Thank you. Ms. MORAN. And I will zoom out a little bit from just the AI aspect of it, but I think mental health, which I think we can all attest to, community. Brands can build businesses using community. They can build community first and then launch a product, and then they have sales immediately built into that. But I think also, at least for me, I wouldn't be here today if I hadn't had a community online when I was in law school in my darkest days, and the rise of social media really allowed me to have a voice and share it and find like-minded people. And I think for children as well, there are really great tools. There are a lot of, you know, learn how to read, learn how to color, learn your numbers, online educational programming using social media that could be really, really helpful. And I think if we regulate and disclose when AI or bad actors are being, you know--when they are caught and they are taken down and banned from using the platform so more good content can keep coming up. Mr. SCHMIDT. Thank you. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Patronis from the great State of Florida for 5 minutes. Mr. PATRONIS. Thank you, Chairman. Thank y'all for being here. I am not going to try to lead with questions--or lead you with my questions I am asking, but let's talk Section 230. How important is its existence to each of you? Ms. MORAN. Can you expand on the section, please? Mr. PATRONIS. If we repealed Section 230, would your life change? Ms. MORAN. Can you expand what the section is for those who don't know? Mr. PATRONIS. Oh, Section 230 is providing liability protection to social media companies. Ms. MORAN. I mean, I think that would be really helpful, especially from the legal perspective. I think, again, the education, the regulation, the disclosure, limiting liability for creators if they are, you know, being the one violating these platforms. But I think the platforms being regulated and held accountable. Mr. PATRONIS. Sure. Ms. BRENNAN. I don't know enough about the section to be able to talk about it. As far as limitation of liability as far as creators are concerned, that would be very helpful in navigating the business and the landscape that is ever changing. Thank you. Mr. PATRONIS. Great. Thank you. Mr. LUCIANO. Yeah, I don't know enough about the section to form an opinion on it. Mr. PATRONIS. Got you. Mr. APPELL. I don't know specifically about that section either, other than I think the responsibility on the side of both the platforms and the creators is important. If we all know that everybody has responsibility for what they are putting up, you generally will get better actions, I think. Mr. PATRONIS. Cool. So parent of a 14-year-old and a 17- year-old. It is fascinating. When I was a kid, I would open up this catalog called JCPenney, and I would circle all the things I wanted for Christmas in it. Now, because of what my children now are able to find, they are writing very detailed lists because of how they have been influenced on social media of the exact model, color, style, model number of what they want. It is crazy. Their desire for different colognes and how social media has steered--you are laughing because you know exactly what I am talking about, and it is so stinking powerful. So now here is my concern. Should the liability--if we were going to try to regulate this for the health of our kids, is it easier for us to say, all right, Congress, if you want to fix this, why don't you just fix it with two players, and that is Apple and Google, or do you go out there and create a solution that is going to affect every social media company, or do you do both? I would love any input you have about that. Ms. BRENNAN. Yeah. Thank you for that question. I think it needs to be everything, because we don't know the next social media platform and how fast it is going to grow. So instead of being, you know, perhaps, behind, we get ahead. And I also think it is really important to look at biometric information and how that is being collected and how that is being used. Mr. PATRONIS. Elaborate. Ms. BRENNAN. So I know Illinois, I think back in 2008, passed the Biometric Information Privacy Act, and that has to deal with--and, again, please look into this, but to my understanding, it dealt with written consent, clear consent. And as soon as the content or the information that was being, you know, collected was done with, they delete it and it couldn't be sold. So I think we need to look into that as far as, not only collecting content, but when companies buy it, can they pair it up with the users there so they can create a full, you know, image. And I know the EU--I will let Ms. Moran speak to that. And the legal implications did pass some, you know, data protection acts. Mr. PATRONIS. Yeah, I think they are a little more--a little stronger in their protections than here. Ms. MORAN. I mean, in general, the EU has a lot stronger protections for things, even beauty products and chemicals and things. So, yeah, I think looking to other countries that have done similar things. I like the idea of biometric regulation. You know, companies, you know--an influencer's swimwear line, they use where their customers are coming from. You know, how many times did they shop this year? What colors do they like? What prints do they like to, you know, design new collections. But how much information are they really getting? And, yeah, what are they doing with it? Maybe they are not selling it, but bad actors are coming in and hacking into it and selling it. Mr. PATRONIS. So do you think--again, getting back to the question, do you think, if Congress was going to act on trying to create some protections, do we just put the expectations on Google and Apple because they have the market share, or do you go and pivot to Facebook, Meta, Twitter, TikTok? Ms. MORAN. I think, as Christina said, I think everybody. I think those two for sure, Apple, Google. Start there. Meta, they are a monolith. You know, they own Instagram, they own Edits, they own--what is the other one? They own WhatsApp. You know, they are huge. So I think going after Meta as well, and then through TikTok and Snap Inc. Even Uber and Lyft, you know, they are using social media as well. The dating apps. Like, everybody. Mr. PATRONIS. Yeah. Don't get me started on dating apps. Mr. APPELL. And then just very briefly, I think it is a good thing for the country if everybody plays by the same rules. But that being said, if we do have one or two parties that are just bigger, making sure those people play by the rules as a way to make sure everybody else knows the rules have changed would be great. Mr. PATRONIS. Great. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time is up. I appreciate you all. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. What a great hearing this has been. We appreciate all of you, and I would like to thank all of our witnesses for your testimony and for appearing before us today. Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to submit additional materials and written questions for the witnesses to the Chair which will be forwarded to the witnesses. So I ask the witnesses to please respond promptly if that happens. And if there is no further business, without objection, the Committee is adjourned. And we want to come down and shake your hand, so don't leave yet. Thank you. A P P E N D I X [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]