[House Hearing, 119 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] ______ THE GOLDEN AGE: UNLEASHING MAIN STREET THROUGH DEREGULATION ======================================================================= HEARING before the COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ HEARING HELD APRIL 1, 2025 __________ GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT Small Business Committee Document Number 119-006 Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov ______ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 59-819 WASHINGTON : 2025 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman PETE STAUBER, Minnesota DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas JAKE ELLZEY, Texas MARK ALFORD, Missouri NICK LALOTA, New York BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota TONY WIED, Wisconsin ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania BRIAN JACK, Georgia TROY DOWNING, Montana KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey GIL CISNEROS, California KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota GEORGE LATIMER, New York DEREK TRAN, California LATEEFAH SIMON, California JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire Lauren Holmes, Majority Staff Director Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director C O N T E N T S OPENING STATEMENTS Page Hon. Roger Williams.............................................. 1 Hon. Nydia Velazquez............................................. 2 WITNESSES Mr. Patrick Montalban, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Montalban Oil & Gas Operations, Inc., Cut Bank, MT............. 5 Mr. Elden Johnson, Owner, Elden Johnson Transportation, Rush City, MN....................................................... 7 Mr. Buddy Hughes, Chairman of the Board, National Association of Home Builders, Lexington, NC................................... 8 Mr. John Arensmeyer, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Small Business Majority, Washington, DC.............................. 9 APPENDIX Prepared Statements: Mr. Patrick Montalban, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Montalban Oil & Gas Operations, Inc., Cut Bank, MT......... 46 Mr. Elden Johnson, Owner, Elden Johnson Transportation, Rush City, MN................................................... 56 Mr. Buddy Hughes, Chairman of the Board, National Association of Home Builders, Lexington, NC............................ 62 Mr. John Arensmeyer, Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Small Business Majority, Washington, DC.................... 72 Questions for the Record: None. Answers for the Record: None. Additional Material for the Record: H.R. 1163 - PROVE IT Act of 2025............................. 82 H.R. 974 - Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act........... 95 Associated Builders and Contractors (ABC).................... 98 National Association of Home Builders (NAHB)................. 99 NH Business.................................................. 102 Small Business & Entrepreneurship Council (SBE).............. 105 THE GOLDEN AGE: UNLEASHING MAIN STREET THROUGH DEREGULATION ---------- TUESDAY, APRIL 1, 2025 House of Representatives, Committee on Small Business, Washington, DC. The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in Room 2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams [chairman of the Committee] presiding. Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Van Duyne, Alford, LaLota, Finstad, Wied, Bresnahan, Jack, Downing, King-Hinds, Velazquez, McGarvey, Scholten, McIver, Cisneros, Morrison, Latimer, Tran, Simon, Olszewski, Conaway, and Goodlander. Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay, before we get started, I want to recognize Congressman Olszewski from the great State of Maryland to lead us in the pledge and the prayer. Mr. OLSZEWSKI. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Dear God, we come before you this day with grateful hearts that you opened our eyes, brought us to this place where we have the opportunity to serve the American people. Lord, I pray that you put your hand and protection over our Chairman, over our Ranking Member, over my colleagues, over staff who worked so hard as we seek to advance your will, keeping us a matter of gratitude and service and love for those whom we serve. Remind us every day what a blessing and honor it is to serve you, Lord. To your name we pray, amen. Chairman WILLIAMS. Good morning, everyone. And now I call the Committee on Small Business to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of the Committee at any time. I now recognize myself for my opening statement. Welcome to today's hearing, ``The Golden Age: Unleashing Main Street Through Deregulation.'' I want to thank our witnesses for being here today. Many of you have traveled a long way to share your experiences and your perspectives, and we deeply value your time and your voice. Today we will focus on the need to unshackle small businesses from burdensome regulations created by the previous administration and examine what actions the Trump administration and Congress are taking to help free small businesses from this red tape. Every small business owner knows that regulations limit their ability to grow and succeed. Unfortunately, the Biden administration has cost American businesses more than $1.8 trillion in additional regulatory costs over just the last 4 years. As a car dealer myself for over 50 years, I know firsthand how harmful regulations can be for small businesses and consumers alike. In the car business, the cost of regulations directly impacts the cost of the car. In fact, regulations could increase the cost for the car by almost 20 percent. Emissions regulations and fuel efficiency standards are among the most expensive to comply with, which directly impacts consumers. This mountain of red tape is uniquely costly to main street. On average, small business owners pay 20 percent more than larger companies to comply with the same regulation. While these small business owners are experts in their fields, they are not experts in regulatory compliance. Small businesses must dedicate as much as they can and more significant portion of their workforce and funds to regularly comply, drastically limiting their ability to grow and discourage the creation of new small businesses. Despite the serious headwinds small businesses face due to this avalanche of regulations, there is reason for hope. The Trump administration has already made progress in removing some of the most harmful regulations imposed on our nation's small businesses by the Biden administration. President Trump's pro- growth policies have already begun to help our nation's most prominent job creators and make them survive and thrive. As a small businessowner, I know the consequences of stifling regulations. That is why in my time as Chairman, one of the top priorities of the Committee has been combatting the red tape that impedes small businesses across America. This Committee is dedicated to creating solutions that will unburden Main Street America, which is what the legislation included in our hearing today intends to address. I hope our conversation today will further shape the potential solutions. I want to thank all of you again for being here. I look forward to our conversation. And with that, now I recognize my friend and Ranking Member from New York, Ms. Velazquez, for her opening remarks. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Chairman Williams. Good morning, everyone. Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. While some may argue that the golden age of deregulation will pave a path to economic growth, we must recognize that the unchecked removal of regulations can have lasting consequences. It is important to understand that regulations provide a foundation that ensures safety, fairness, and sustainability for all Americans as well as small businesses. Regulations make sure the food restaurants serve is safe, the water craft breweries use to make beer is free of contaminants, and the air we breathe is clean. Regulations also provide clear rules of the road for small businesses, offering certainty and ensuring that they can compete on a level playing field. Clear, consistent rules help small firms understand what is expected, foster fair competition, and lead to success. Regulations promote innovation, especially in the energy and manufacturing sectors. The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law and Inflation Reduction Act created the framework for accelerating clean energy development and innovation. The accompanying regulations prioritized investment in renewable energy, energy efficiency, and clean technologies, driving innovation in the clean energy sectors. With that said, I understand certain regulations can be onerous and difficult for small employers to comply with, but deregulation is not the answer. The chainsaw approach will roll back important safeguards and cause uncertainty for small firms. Uncertainty seems to be par for the course with this administration. In 2 short months, reckless policies have wreaked havoc, chaos, and confusion across the American landscape, harming main street. On January 24, President Trump illegally fired the Inspector General who was committed to investigating and recovering fraudulent funds. Days later, OMB released a memo requiring agencies to freeze further funding, causing confusion for small businesses, lenders, and contractors. On February 3, Elon Musk and his team gained access to all of SBA's systems, including human resources, contract and payment systems, endangering the private information of millions of American small businesses. Then on Friday, February 7, hundreds of SBA employees received termination notices, only to be told it was a mistake on Monday, and then fired for real on Tuesday. A Maryland District Court judge issued a temporary order reinstating probationary employees through March 27. However, the SBA placed them on administrative leave. This is not the way to lead. On March 21, the President announced SBA will take over the federal government's student loan portfolio, which has nothing to do with advancing the mission of the SBA. It is incomprehensible that SBA will be asked to take on the servicing of more than $1.6 trillion in loans while the staff is being cut almost in half. If the destruction of the government isn't enough, Donald Trump is picking a fight with Mexico and Canada using tariffs. Small retailers, manufacturers, and farmers all over the country are reeling. The uncertainty has left many small businesses struggling to keep up. Our focus today should be on the reckless policies of the Trump administration that are sowing tariffs, confusion, and uncertainty for small businesses. Mr. Chairman, so much for lowering inflation. Thank you, and I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. I will now introduce our witnesses. The first witness with us today is Patrick Montalban. Mr. Montalban is the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Montalban Oil & Gas Operations, Inc., in Cut Bank, Montana. Mr. Montalban has overseen Montalban Oil & Gas operations for over 20 years, taking over from his father who started the company in the fifties. He has also worked with Mountainview Energy Limited, Genesis Energy, and Altamont Oil & Gas. In addition, Mr. Montalban is the Chairman of the National Stripper Well Association and a member of the American Association of Petroleum Geologists, the Domestic Energy Producers Alliance, and the Northern Montana Oil and Gas Association. Mr. Montalban holds a bachelor of arts in geology from the University of Montana and a bachelor of science in geology from Montana State University at Bozeman. Thank you for joining us today. Looking forward to our conversation. I now yield to the distinguished Member from Minnesota, Mr. Stauber, to introduce the next witness from his district. Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Our next witness here with us today is Mr. Elden Johnson. Mr. Johnson is the owner and operator of Elden Johnson Transportation in Rush City, Minnesota, founded in 1999. Elden Johnson Transportation is a major hub for trucking services in our region. The company's fleet of vehicles, manned by skilled drivers, ensures the smooth transportation of goods across various distances and terrains. The company has established itself as a go-to option for businesses looking to move their products swiftly, safely, and securely. Mr. Johnson is a member of the National Federation of Independent Business, and currently resides in Rush City Minnesota, with his wife and son. Thank you for joining us, Elden, today, and I am looking forward to your comments. And I yield. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. And now our next witness here with us today is Mr. Buddy Hughes. Mr. Hughes is the Chairman of the Board for the National Association of Home Builders in Washington, D.C. As a third-generation builder, Mr. Hughes opened his own general contracting business, Hughes Construction, in 1985. Mr. Hughes has been an active principal in the National Association of Home Builders leadership structure at that level and State and national levels. He currently serves as a life delegate of the Leadership Council and has been a member of the board of directors for more than 20 years. Mr. Hughes is an Eagle Scout and was awarded the Richie Scott Award form the Insulating Concrete Form Association in 2007 and the National Association of Home Builders S.A. Walters Award in 2018. Thank you for joining us today. Looking forward to our conversation. I now recognize the Ranking Member from New York, Ms. Velazquez, to briefly introduce our last witness appearing before us today. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to introduce Mr. John Arensmeyer, the Founder and CEO of the Small Business Majority. John launched the Small Business Majority 20 years ago, and he has built it into a nationally recognized organization focused on empowering America's entrepreneurs to build a thriving and equitable economy. He has become a leading advocate on critical policy issues affecting small business. Prior to that, John was the Founder and CEO of an award- winning interactive communications company. With a background in business and public policy, John will be able to discuss the challenges and opportunities facing small businesses today. We are fortunate to have him here today. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. And, again, we appreciate all of you being here today. And before recognizing all of you, I want to remind you the way we operate here, okay, that your oral testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length. If you see the light turn red in front of you, it means that your 5 minutes is up and you need to conclude. If you don't conclude, you are going to hear me doing this, okay? But it will be fine. And also, you might see Members coming and going in and out; it has no reflection on your testimony or anything. There are other hearings going on today. So you will hear everybody from me and the Ranking Member and others stepping out and then stepping back in. So with that being said, I would like to recognize Mr. Montalban for his 5-minute opening remarks. STATEMENTS OF MR. PATRICK MONTALBAN, CHAIRMAN & CEO, MONTALBAN OIL & GAS OPERATIONS, ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL STRIPPER WELL ASSOCIATION; MR. ELDEN JOHNSON, OWNER, ELDEN JOHNSON TRANSPORTATION, ON BEHALF OF THE NATIONAL FEDERATION OF INDEPENDENT BUSINESS; MR. BUDDY HUGHES, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, THE NATIONAL HOME BUILDERS ASSOCIATION; AND MR. JOHN ARENSMEYER, FOUNDER & CEO, SMALL BUSINESS MAJORITY STATEMENT OF PATRICK MONTALBAN Mr. MONTALBAN. Thank you, Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, Vice Ranking Member McGarvey, and Members of this Committee. My name is Patrick Montalban. I reside in Cut Bank, Montana, and I am the Chairman of the National Stripper Well Association. We represent the small independents of America that produce small wells, and we call them the ma and pa outfits in oil and gas business. A stripper well is 15 barrels a day or less or 90,000 MCF. We produce about 13.6 million barrels in this fine country of ours, and we produce about 10 percent of that production, or about 1.3 million barrels. This production is produced out of 760,000 wells over 32 States, or about 80 percent of the production in this great country. We call it the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, many of us, as we believe it is a very constant and ready for the citizens of this great country. We generate great jobs in rural America and we provide excellent jobs to our local communities. It takes as many people to run a three-barrel-a-day well as it does a 300- barrel-a-day well. We are not large integrated companies. We don't produce oil, refine oil, and sell oil. We receive a price at the well head or on the site for what we produce. We have been in this business for many years. One of the things many people don't think about are the royalty owners that are associated with our business. Many people, such as farmees and retirees, receive this extra income each month to help them pay their bills. To give you an example, some of the royalty owners in Texas, 4.4 million; Minnesota, 71,000; Pennsylvania, 18,000; Kansas, 221,000; and my great State of Montana, Congressman Downing, 71,000. I am Chairman and CEO of Montalban Oil and Gas. I had a degree in geology from the University of Montana. My father started this company in the 1950s. We have 17 full employees and pay $35 an hour. We pay a hundred percent of healthcare for our employees and their families. We provide an excellent package for each and every employee. We are the largest producer on the Blackfeet Nation Indian Reservation in Montana. We pay 19 to 25 percent royalty. A normal royalty in the oil and gas business is 12.5 to 15 percent. We are a community orientated company, and we give back to the schools, to the hospitals, and all the local businesses. We have been confronted for years on regulations. In the Obama administration, we look back and we called that operating under a thousand cuts. We got through those 8 years, but nothing was like the Biden administration. The Biden administration wanted to clearly put us out of business. And I had a few individuals in the Department of Interior and the EPA tell me so. Think about that, everyone at this Committee, if you would like to have someone tell you that the government would like to put you out of business. These are strong jobs in rural America. How were they going to do this? They were going to do this with the methane tax regulations by the EPA, the bonding requirements with the Department of Interior, and dear to my heart, the UIC injection program for water injectivity in our oil and gas business. We operate under numerous levels in the State of Montana. We have state, federal, tribal fee and numerous layers of regulations. The three major concerns with the methane rules was the subpart W, or the reporting, or 0000b, OOOOc, which brought in the small independents. This would have put every small independent out of business in America. Don't kid yourself. The UIC program is the underground injection control program operated by the EPA. Started in 1986, and it was a very good program, but, unfortunately, they have gone over their bounds and have hurt the small independents. One of the hardest things for federal properties for the small independents was how they changed the Department of Interior bonding regulations. They took a 10,000 well dollars-- excuse me. They took a single well bond for $10,000 to $150,000, and a multiple well bond for, in other words two wells, from $25,000 to $500,000. What this clearly did was take us out of operating on small--or federal lands. Thank you for this time. It is going to be a new golden age for the small independents of America now that we have new administrators appointed by the Trump administration. Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much. And I now recognize Mr. Johnson for his 5-minute opening remarks. STATEMENT OF ELDEN JOHNSON Mr. JOHNSON. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, and Members of the House Small Business Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today on behalf of the small business owners across America. My name is Elden Johnson. I own Elden Johnson Transportation in Rush City, Minnesota, which I started in 1999. Over the last 4 years, small businesses have faced unprecedented challenges, including COVID shutdowns, supply chain disruptions, historic inflation, burdensome regulatory environment, and systemic workforce shortages. These major challenges have fueled uncertainty and reduced small business optimism. One major headwind for small businesses is the unprecedented regulation--regulatory burden imposed on us over the last 4 years. The Biden administration has added $1.8 trillion in regulatory compliance costs and added 356 million paperwork hours. These compliance costs disproportionately impact businesses like mine. I do not have compliance officers or lawyers to navigate complex laws and regulations. Those responsibilities and many others fall on me as a business owner. Following the 2024 election, small business optimism surged. Small businesses saw the election result as a major shift to the nation's economic and regulatory policy towards a more pro-business environment. Although small business remains optimistic, there are warning signs on the horizon. The looming expiration of key provisions of the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, specifically the 20 percent small business deduction, creates uncertainty about whether my taxes will go up next year. Congress can help small businesses like mine, like passing the Main Street Tax Certainty Act, to prevent the massive high tax on 9 out of 10 small businesses. In addition to uncertainty caused by looming tax hikes, the onerous regulatory environment over the last 4 years has laid a wet blanket over the economy. Specifically, the EPA's de facto electric vehicle mandates and the Department of Labor's independent contractor rule have the potential to shut my business down for good. These regulations ignore the reality. The entire industry relies on longstanding work arrangements like independent contractors or to an all-electric fleet that is simply not feasible. In rural Minnesota where I live, there is no infrastructure to support these vehicles, and industries like trucking can't wait for hours for batteries to recharge to go back to work. The Federal Motor Carrier Administration has also put significant strain on the trucking industry from their overregulation. Their proposed speed limit regulation and electronic logging regulation would impose one-size-fits-all mandates. They will make our roads less efficient and less safe. I understand the well-intentioned nature of the rules; however, the one-size-fits-all approach from Washington ignores that safety is my number one priority. Truckers want to get home safely to their families, as we want the others that share the road with us too. We do not need Congress or federal agencies to order us to be safe. We already are. Lastly, the Biden administration beneficial ownership reporting requirements mandated 32.6 small businesses register with the federal government or face penalties of up $10,000 and 2 years in prison. Thankfully, President Trump stopped enforcement, correctly calling the mandate outrageous, invasive, and an economic menace. This action has saved small businesses from devastating civil and criminal penalties. Congress must make this win permanent by passing and repealing the Big Brother Overreach Act and destroy beneficial ownership data that has already been collected from U.S. small businesses. Small businesses are optimistic that the Trump administration and Congress will deliver pro-growth, economic, and regulatory reform policies. However, doing so requires Congress to roll up its sleeves and go to work. Congress must enact much-needed regulatory protections for small businesses like the PROVE It Act, and eliminate vague statutes like the Corporate Transparency Act. Most importantly, Congress must provide small businesses an economic certainty that taxes will not increase at the end of the year. This certainty will give my business the comfort to expand and increase the opportunities we can offer our associates and workforce. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this, the impact of these burdensome regulations on small businesses, and I look forward to your questions. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Hughes for his 5-minute opening remarks. STATEMENT OF BUDDY HUGHES Mr. HUGHES. Chair Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, and Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today on behalf of the National Association of Home Builders. America is experiencing a housing affordability crisis. Overly burdensome and, in some cases, unnecessary government regulations bear some of the responsibility for driving up construction costs and contributing to our housing affordability crisis. Nearly 25 percent of the price of newly built single-family homes and 41 percent of apartment development costs are due to regulations. It does not need to be like this. We can have an effective regulatory environment while minimizing burdens on small businesses. Unfortunately, rulemaking agencies fail to consider how regulations will affect small businesses and often flat out ignore the Regulatory Flexibility Act. Last year, this Committee's own RFA compliance investigation highlighted how widespread this problem is. That investigation also pointed to potential paths to reform and strengthen the 45-year-old law, which we support. One example of the lack of RFA compliance is Waters of the U.S. regulation. This rule directly impacts builders who need to determine if a water feature is subject to federal or state regulation. While over 60,000 permit applications for such activities are processed each year, the EPA certified that the 2023 proposed rule would not have a significant impact on a substantial number of small entities, allowing the agency to skip the compliance with aspects of the RFA. This finding defies all common sense. Legislation such as Representative Finstad's PROVE It Act would go a long way to correcting this by increasing small business input into the rulemaking process and holding agencies accountable. The Trump administration is also taking action to eliminate unnecessary regulations. NAHB commends this. And I want to point out three regulations in the pipeline that deserve greater scrutiny. First, HUD and USDA's April of 2024 rule to require homes financed through the agencies to comply with excessive minimum energy standards. This will not only drive up costs, in some cases, by more than $30,000 per unit, but only nine States have fully or partially adopted the new requirements, which means we won't be able to deliver much-needed housing using these programs. We urge Congress to support legislation prohibiting HUD and USDA from adopting any energy standards. Second, OSHA's August of 2024 proposed one-size-fits-all rule to establish a federal heat standard contains many elements that would be infeasible for small businesses in the construction industry. NAHB urges OSHA to withdraw this proposed rule. Instead, OSHA should continue encouraging employers to follow the principles outlined in OSHA's long- promoted water, rest, and shade campaign. Third, HUD's April of 2024 rule to implement a Federal Flood Risk Management Standards expands floodplain management requirements and fundamentally threatens access to FHA mortgage insurance programs for single-family home buyers and multifamily builders. For these reasons, we urge HUD to repeal its FFRMS rule. An improved regulatory environment will unlock economic growth and open the door for the millions of Americans who are priced out of the housing market. NAHB applauds this Committee for highlighting the lack of agency compliance with the RFA and ways to improve our rulemaking process. NAHB stands ready to work with this Committee to unleash main street through deregulation. Thanks again for this opportunity. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Arensmeyer for his 5-minute opening remarks. STATEMENT OF JOHN ARENSMEYER Mr. ARENSMEYER. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, and Committee Members, thank you for inviting me here today to speak to you. At Small Business Majority, we engage our network of more than 85,000 small businesses and 1,500 partner organizations to advocate for public policy solutions and deliver resources to entrepreneurs in order to promote dynamic small business growth. Twenty-one million new businesses have been created in the past 4 years. We need to be doing everything we can to support these new enterprises by focusing on the issues that are impacting them the most. Regulation certainly can be a pain, but small business owners consistently rank regulations near the bottom of the list of many challenges they face. I will be addressing some of the regulatory issues in a bit, but I want to make the point that businesses are much more concerned with the devastating impact for the Trump administration's slash-and-burn economic policies than they are about federal regulations. This is fueling extreme uncertainty and a severe drop in business confidence in surveys conducted by organizations across the ideological spectrum. Our own most recent survey shows a drop by one-third in optimism in the past 2 months alone, and more than doubling in pessimism. For the first time in a long time, pessimism outranks optimism, and 44 percent have experienced revenue declines. On a daily basis we are hearing fear and horror about the administration's arbitrary, chaotic, and unpredictable actions that are destabilizing the economy. These actions include onerous inflationary tariffs, terminating vital federal programs supporting entrepreneurs, slashing the SBA's workforce by 43 percent while piling on $1.6 trillion of unrelated students loan responsibilities, and mass deportations that exacerbate small businesses' existing workforce challenges. The tariffs are perhaps what we are hearing about the most. Seventy-seven percent of small businesses say the expanded tariffs will be detrimental to our economy. Nikki Bravo, owner of Momentum Coffee in Chicago; Margo Clayson, owner of The Mighty Microgreen in Inkom, Idaho; and Mike Roach, owner of Paloma Clothing in Portland, Oregon, are worried that new tariffs could be devastating to their businesses. The same survey finds that two-thirds oppose the administration's policies, with more than three-quarters opposed to the SBA cuts. But back to regulations. Regulations are a necessary fact of life for small businesses. From food safety to responsible workplace practices to mitigating environmental harm to preventing financial scams, there is a legitimate need for government to ensure a healthy competitive business landscape undergirded by a level playing field. The debate over regulations should not be ideological; rather, it must be based on a case-by-case pragmatic analysis. Because regulations can sometimes be burdensome, it is essential that we have a process to assess their costs and benefits. A one-size-fits-all indiscriminate deregulatory policy, such as eliminating 10 regulations for every one enacted, reflects a performative slash-and-burn approach to governing that has no relationship to actual business realities. Small businesses value fair and reasonable regulations that help them compete with large companies and establish clear, easy-to-follow rules of the road. They repeatedly point to the importance of regulations in both fostering competition and holding large corporations accountable. Our polling shows that 86 percent of small business owners agree that some regulation of business is necessary in a modern economy, and 93 percent agree that their business can live with regulations if they are fair, manageable, and reasonable. As such, we support efforts to ensure small business owners are more involved in the promulgation and implementation of new regulations. Existing regulatory structures should be strengthened, such as those under the Regulatory Flexibility Act, which requires a review of rules that will have significant impact on a substantial number of businesses within a 10-year period. Following the RFA, along with proper coordination with the SBA's Independent Office of Advocacy, enables agencies to ensure that regulations are not overly burdensome. Moreover, the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs provides additional insight in the federal rulemaking process. The previous administration recognized the importance of OIRA's key functions through an executive order encouraging agencies to take necessary steps to strengthen the regulatory review process with public involvement in rulemaking. Finally, Congress should consider solutions to help main street work within the regulatory requirements of their respective industries while maintaining a commitment to health, safety, and commercial standards. Small businesses need certainty, consistency, and clear guidelines from the government, not chaos and confusion. Congress should be hyper-focused on helping small business owners navigate the ever-changing and increasingly challenging economy while helping them find relief from tariffs and draconian budget cuts. I look forward to answering your questions. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. And we will now move to the Member questions under the 5- minute rule. I recognize myself for the first 5 minutes. Whether by enacting a late-minute halt on domestic drilling on federal lands or purposely slowing his administration's approval process for oil and gas projects, one thing was clear, President Biden's actions threatened American energy independence. This regulatory assault was particularly painful for Main Street America. Small businesses and overly regulated industries had to beg the federal government for approval to simply conduct business. So, Mr. Montalban, how did the Biden administration's withholding of your project approvals and other administrative prohibitions harm the oil and gas industry? Mr. MONTALBAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It started out with the Department of Interior, and the bonding was critical to the small independents, as I mentioned before. They stopped the drilling because of the bonding, and they stopped any transaction between independents on trying to buy or sell any federal properties. Chairman WILLIAMS. Did you ever hear from the government agency officials why an approval was withheld or delayed? Did you ever hear from them? Mr. MONTALBAN. We have had numerous situations in our business over the last 4 years why permitting--permits to drill, permits to inject water--have not gone through the process, and we have never heard back. Chairman WILLIAMS. During the Biden administration, American businesses were saddled by--we have heard this figure already--$1.8 trillion in additional regulatory costs. Small businesses do not have enough resource to hire high-priced attorneys like large corporations do. Because of that, compliance has often left the owner or an employee who will have trouble navigating the complex language of these rules. And even worse, most industries face regulations from different agencies that may be conflicting. This has caused confusion, uncertainty to small businesses trying to navigate the regulatory minefield. So, Mr. Johnson, tell us about your experience navigating the regulatory landscape. What has been the cost to your business and the impact to your employees? Mr. JOHNSON. There are numerous regulations. A lot of them are--I guess the EPA-related are the most expensive and troublesome for us. I don't know if you want the specific. One of them is the EPA mandate for the diesel motors called death fluid, which is burdensome; sometimes putting our trucks in the shop for weeks at a time, and some of the repair bills up to like $17- to $20,000, plus the time that our trucks are not moving. Chairman WILLIAMS. Yeah, and you don't have time to hire outside auditors and all that to come in. Mr. JOHNSON. No. Heavens no. Chairman WILLIAMS. Creates a heck of a burden for you. Mr. JOHNSON. Can't do it. Can't do it. Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. An essential part of the American Dream is homeownership. Unfortunately, the cost of housing and building has continued to grow year over year. Studies by the National Home Builders Association found that 25 percent of the cost of a house is attributed to the regulations. This has pushed an estimated 14 million Americans away from their home being--having a dream home and owning one. So, Mr. Hughes, can you explain how burdensome regulations cause such a substantial cost increase for home builders, and what should be done to reduce these regulatory barriers? Mr. HUGHES. Well, unfortunately, there is a plethora of reasons and regulations. The one that I deal with the most is burdensome codes. We have just gone too far with energy regulations, and a lot of that 25 percent. And it may help to put that into perspective to say the dollar amount. That 25 percent is $94,000. So the first $94,000 is just regulations, and a lot of that is codes. Other things is--Mr. Arensmeyer mentioned the one-size- fits-all. Too many times our engineering and storm water regulations for small subdivisions, which I deal with a lot more, are way too burdensome. And it is not a one size fits all. Chairman WILLIAMS. Well, and they get passed on to the potential buyer---- Mr. HUGHES. Sure. Chairman WILLIAMS.--who has to go to the bank, borrow that much money, pay that much more interest. Mr. HUGHES. Correct. Chairman WILLIAMS. And it hurts, doesn't it? But if the government would stay out of your business, we might see a price reduction. Mr. HUGHES. Oh, that is---- Chairman WILLIAMS. You are on record, Mr. HUGHES. Yes. Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Mr. HUGHES. Absolutely. I would love to see the federal government get out of the codes business. Chairman WILLIAMS. All right. Thank you very much. I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of her questioning. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Arensmeyer, what are your opinion polls showing? Are burdensome regulations one of the top priorities? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Ranking Member, we have been conducting polls of small business owners and surveys around the network for the last 20 years. And we talked with small businesses every day. We do not hear certainly federal regulations listed as a top concern. It is access to capital, healthcare. Childcare is now a big issue, unfair competition and all of the---- Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Is it fair to say that small employers are worried about tariffs? Mr. ARENSMEYER. They are incredibly worried about tariffs. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Are small businesses concerned about remaining competitive and turning a profit? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Absolutely. The level of fear and uncertainty right now is incredible. We are hearing it every day. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Mr. Hughes, are home builders anxious about the Trump tariffs being levied against construction imports, like Canadian lumber, aluminum, and steel? Yes or no? Mr. HUGHES. Yes. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Builder confidence ticked down in February to the lowest level in 7 months. Is that partly due to the economic uncertainty? Yes or no? Mr. HUGHES. Yes. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. It seems to me that the top concern of small businesses is the economic uncertainty stemming from the Trump administration's reckless policies. I would like to enter into the record, Mr. Chairman, a press release, May 17, from the National Association of Home Builders. Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Mr. Arensmeyer, in your testimony, you mentioned small employers need certainty. Could you describe how the policies of the Trump administration have sown confusion and disruption to small businesses? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Small business owners have no idea what is happening on a day-to-day basis. They don't know what tariffs they are going to be hit with. They don't know if their employees are going to be--legal immigrants are going to get rounded up from their businesses. And they don't know what next agency is going to be slashed. They cannot plan in this kind of environment. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. President Trump announced SBA will be taking on the $1.7 trillion student loan program. So I ask you, is SBA equipped, if that is the core mission of the Small Businesses Administration? It exists to help small businesses access capital, federal procurement. $1.7 trillion student loan program. Do you think this is consistent with the core mission of SBA, Mr. Hughes? Mr. HUGHES. I am sorry. Not my area of expertise. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Student loans? The Small Business Administration is in the business of providing access to capital, it is technical assistance, capacity building for small businesses. What do student loan programs have to do with small businesses? Nothing. Do you believe the SBA can effectively support small businesses while taking on the student loan program and cutting staff by more than 40 percent? Mr. Arensmeyer? Mr. ARENSMEYER. It is mystifying, Congresswoman. We can't figure it out at all. I have talked about the growth in small businesses over the last 4 years. We need to be making sure we are supporting those businesses, and we need sufficient staff to do that. And why anybody thinks we take on a $1.6 trillion student loan program, it boggles the mind. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. This Committee has jurisdiction over the Small Business Administration. Mr. Chairman, when are we going to have a hearing to bring the Administrator in and to explain to us how she will be able to handle the needs of small businesses who need certainty and the student loan program? When will you be asking her to come into this Committee and discuss the reorganization of the Small Business Administration? I sent--we the Committee Democrats have sent five letters to the Administrator. We haven't received one answer. Remember when you really got upset, Mr. Chairman---- Chairman WILLIAMS. No. Ms. VELAZQUEZ.--when the previous Administrator didn't answer your question--your letters? I even joined with you. So I expect the same here. Later this month, we will be marking up the PROVE It Act. John, do you have a position on this bill? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Our feeling is that the structures that are in place right now are sufficient. If they are not being--we have heard that perhaps the RFA is not being sufficiently enforced--let's increase enforcement. The previous administration took steps to improve the OIRA process. So if we layer another structure on top of this, there is going to be more confusion and more uncertainty for small businesses. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri for 5 minutes. Mr. ALFORD. Well, thank you. That was interesting. Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking Member Velazquez. The last 4 years, small businesses have been under attack from an administration determined to crush main street under the boot of Big Government. In the previous administration, federal agencies finalized more than 1,000 regulations, costing taxpayers $1.8 trillion in compliance. That is the same as the entire federal discretionary budget for fiscal year 2023. It is unacceptable that federal agencies can put this burden on the taxpayers of this country. This outrageous abuse of power by the executive branch is what the American people rejected when they overwhelmingly elected Donald J. Trump as President. I am proud to support the efforts of the President and the patriots at DOGE working to rightsize our government and ensure that no future administration can unilaterally place such a burden on main street. And yes, I am optimistic. I am optimistic that things are going to turn around in America finally. I don't have a woe is me attitude. I am glad we are getting the $1.7 trillion loan portfolio over to the Small Business Administration. Finally, maybe 300,000 square feet of office space that was previously unfilled will be filled with people actually at their desk working for the American people. The student loan program should never have been the business of the federal government to begin with. But now we have it. Let's do something about it, along with the Pell grants. Mr. Montalban, Biden's war on fossil fuels cost jobs, as you know. It is estimated that it cost up to 59,000 jobs, either people laid off from pipelines and fracking or jobs not realized. And yet, in less than 3 months, DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency, has laid off some 30,000 federal workers out of some 33 million. That is less than 1 percent. And yet, there is all this outcry. Are federal workers guaranteed a job for life, sir? Mr. MONTALBAN. No, Congressman. Mr. ALFORD. Are workers in the fossil fuel industry entitled to a job for life. Mr. MONTALBAN. No. Mr. ALFORD. Why do you think that there is so much outrage over less than 1 percent of the federal workforce being laid off and no one gave a hoot about 59,000 workers, and also farmers who have gone out of business because of the high-input cost from fertilizer that is made out of natural gas? All these implications. The President of the United States targeted the fossil fuel industry, but he trained the crosshairs on the backs of our farmers and the backs of people who work for you. Why is that? Why the discrepancy? Mr. MONTALBAN. Well, first of all, it is nice to have common sense back in government. And second of all, I don't think that we should be paying any student loans. I put myself through college. But the bottom line is, in our industry, with Department of Interior Doug Burgum; Chris Wright with the Department of Energy; and Lee Zeldin, head of the EPA, we think we have a new future in the oil and gas industry as small independents, sir. Mr. ALFORD. Thank you. Mr. Hughes, I am glad you are here today. $95,000 in added costs. In my area, in the Kansas City market, 6 months before the policies, the green new scam was initiated and these codes were adopted by Kansas City, they were averaging 85 single- family permits per month. Six months after the policy implementation, only 26 single-family permits were issued in total. That is crazy. Do you have anything against if someone wants to build a nice home for them to add these more efficient measures to their home at their own expense? Mr. HUGHES. Absolutely not. And I have been dealing with what we would call innovative products since the mid-nineties. More efficient, structurally sound products that we are doing envelopes (ph) out of. It is a much stronger and more efficient structure. The bottom line is it costs more. And I deal with a lot of folks that have that extra money when they are building their second or third home, but it is not practical to require that of first-time home buyers. Mr. ALFORD. And yet it is stifling homeownership in America. The American Dream is at risk because this past President, this past administration decided to put their foot on the neck of home builders, tying them up, shackling them with those overburdensome regulations, which is killing the housing market in America. That is why Tracey Mann and I led a letter to the USDA to pause the implementation of these very burdensome regulations so we can keep the American Dream alive. Mr. HUGHES. The dollar mark on that added--2021 IECC--was around $30,000. $30,000. Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, sir. Thank you all for being here today on your own time and your own dime. God bless you. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Olszewski from the great State of Maryland for 5 minutes. Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you all for your time today. I don't know where to start, so I am going to just try to work this. Hopefully, we can have a bit of a quick conversation in my time today. I will just start by an observation. I think done right and done in partnership, government regulation can save lives and can boost economic output, done right, in partnership. I hope that is something we can all sort of agree to as a general principle as we go about this work. I think we can also agree there is certainly opportunities to reassess and to reevaluate, change repeal of regulations that were not done right. And I will just say, I will speak for myself, and I am sure some of my colleagues, we welcome that conversation. The sense I got from some of the testimony today was that there should not be a one-size-fits-all approach to regulation. Is that a fair sort of observation or takeaway? Okay. Thank you. So I would just, I guess, put out there that, perhaps as we consider and have these conversations, we shouldn't take a one- size approach to peeling them back either. So let's take that same approach to unwinding regulations that may be onerous unnecessarily. And just like we had a conversation today, I do want to associate myself with the comments of the Ranking Member. I truly do, and I mean this authentically, welcome a conversation with the administrator. Hope that she would be willing to answer questions that are proposed by any Member of this Committee, because I think that is how we get to some of that work. My colleague mentioned outrage about prior employees of the federal government. My guess to the President's joint address was actually a federal employee who was helping those farmers that were mentioned earlier. She worked for U.S. Fish and Wildlife, helping assist farmers in Maryland. She was hired under President Trump's first administration and she was let go under his second administration because she was promoted. She did such a good job that she was on probation. And so I hope, again, we cannot take this one-size approach in the work that we do. You know, I guess--you know, I also wanted to lean in. I wasn't planning on doing this on the student loan piece, because for countless businesses, these training programs, these pathways are lifelines and pathways to prosperity for so many people. And so I do think it is critical that we find ways to support that, just as I think we need to do more for homeownership. Homeownership is a great frontier. So, Mr. Hughes, I think we talked about this a little bit. Is it fair to say that the tariffs that are being talked about might raise the cost of building a single-family home anywhere from $7,500 to $10,000? Any sense of what we are looking at for increased costs? Mr. HUGHES. A dollar amount, it would be hard to say because it covers so many different products. Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Okay. Mr. HUGHES. Who knows where it is going. We have been dealing with tariffs for years, truthfully. Lumber coming out of Canada---- Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Sure. Mr. HUGHES.--has been tariffed to death already. We are concerned. Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Yeah. And I heard, you know, the conversations earlier about the costs. We obviously--we don't want to unnecessarily increase costs, but we can agree that increasing costs through tariffs would be another cost that would impact businesses and consumers. Is that fair across the board here? Mr. HUGHES. Yes. Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Okay. And I guess just to that point of employees, I do want to, I guess, reemphasize the point of I am uncertain how we can do more to work with businesses as we are peeling away half the workforce of the Small Business Administration, upending offices, moving people. So, again, I think I just wanted to lead today with reenforcing that we would welcome the conversation with you and with others. So as I have done with prior witnesses, if there are specific regulations that you all would like this Committee to consider reviewing, perhaps repealing, if you could just as a followup submit for the record some of those recommendations, I truly would welcome that, and I know that we as a Committee would be welcoming those conversations. So I really appreciate everyone's time today. I will do something rare, Mr. Chairman. I will yield back the balance of my time. Mr. MEUSER. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields. I now recognize Ms. Van Duyne from Texas for 5 minutes. Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today. Small businesses are the foundation, as you know, of the American economy, comprising 99 percent of all U.S. farms and employing nearly half of the nation's workforce. They are instrumental in fostering innovation, creating jobs, and driving economic growth within our communities. Unfortunately, in 2022, regulatory burdens reached an all- time high of an estimated $3 trillion or approximately 12 percent of the U.S. GDP. And rather than providing the relief, Biden administration added an additional $1.8 trillion in regulatory costs. And as I have emphasized before, every dollar an hour that is spent on compliance is a dollar not invested in hiring employees, expanding facilities, or fostering innovation. Small businesses with their limited resources are particularly vulnerable to these impediments. President Trump and Administrator Loeffler and congressional Republicans are committed to streamlining government and eliminating burdensome regulations. To date, the administration has halted over $180 billion worth of regulations. And Congress has an important role to play as we explore additional reforms necessary to free up small businesses and promote economic growth. As a Member of the Oversight Subcommittee, I have consistently worked to ensure that small business owners are not buried under bureaucratic red tape. Earlier this year, I reintroduced the Small Business Regulatory Reduction Act which mandates that cost neutrality in the SBA's regulations and also requires the agency to report to Congress on the financial impact of other financial federal regulations on small businesses. Without objection, I move to enter a letter from the Small Business and Entrepreneurial Council into the record in support of the bill. Mr. MEUSER. So moved. Ms. VAN DUYNE. Mr. Hughes, the price of homes has skyrocketed. You are having issues now with actually being able to get a mortgage. Mortgage rates are high. And as you noted, the regulatory burdens accounted for nearly 25 percent of the price of a typically new-built, single-family home. And I would actually do you one further. I think it depends in what State. While in Texas it may be 25 percent, in places like California it is actually 40 percent. So what are some of the regulations at the federal level that contribute to this issue? Mr. HUGHES. Codes. I keep going back to codes. But energy codes in specific. Eighty percent of codes we don't argue about. Health and safety engineering, those things don't change much. But it is when the administration's climate agenda entered into it. Like I say, just one new code, the 2021 IECC, which is the energy code, came in to being. That is when it jumped--jumped an average of $30,000 per house. And that is small houses. Large houses, $30,000. It is hard to swallow. Ms. VAN DUYNE. How have the home builders in your association responded to President Trump and the congressional Republicans to regulatory commitments? Mr. HUGHES. Everybody is excited, very excited about the hope that we can get beyond some of these regulations, particularly--and it goes--it goes farther than codes too. In my home county, we had a town hall meeting a couple of weeks ago with three of our Senators, and some folks showed up in the grading business. We have a severe shortage of lots, buildable lots that small builders like myself can buy to build a house on. And the reason for that is storm water regulations, EPA regulations. And the number that jumped out at me--I have done--I have only done five or six subdivisions over my career, and all very small subdivisions, 20 lots or less, and we didn't have to spend a lot of money in the early nineties for engineering. The number today, the average is $1,000 per lot per--just for engineering. Ms. VAN DUYNE. That is great information to know. Thank you. Mr. Johnson, in your testimony, you alluded an issue of a significant noncompliance for the Regulatory Flexibility Act. Would you agree that it is time that the SBA take stock of agencies' compliance and issue a report to Congress so that we can act on these findings? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. Ms. VAN DUYNE. Excellent. All right. I yield the rest of my time. And thank you very much to our witnesses. Mr. MEUSER. The gentlelady yields. I now recognize Dr. Conaway from New Jersey for 5 minutes. Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And before I get to my prepared questions, I just have to comment on some of these energy regulations. I happen to have upgraded the energy situation in my own home recently, and it was due to a State program helping with that cost. But the reason I did it was because those--that more efficient heating and air-conditioning system saves money over time and would enhance the resale value of my house. In fact, I bought my own home because there were solar panels up on it. I knew it would--I am sure I paid for that in my purchase price, but, you know, it certainty saved me substantial amounts of energy costs, particularly electricity costs, for my home. And so I think there is a--I guess there is just another side to tell. I am not asking as a question, just making a statement. Energy efficiency has its place. And I guess, you know, when it is applied and when people decide in order to try to achieve those savings, leave it to the individual. But I think the more that homeowners do that, the better off we will be on multiple fronts. The homeowner will save money and will do hopefully better about preserving our Earth for future generations. I will get to my statement. The United States is part of a global economy that ripples its way through the largest corporations to the smallest businesses on main street. According to government statistics, a total of 20,072 companies exported from New Jersey locations in 2022. And of that number, 18,331 or 91 percent were small-, medium-sized enterprises with fewer than 500 employees. Furthermore, New Jersey's largest market was Canada. My home State exported $8.4 billion in goods to Canada in 2024, and this represents 20 percent of New Jersey's total goods exported. The Trump administration's continued rollout of tariffs against our closest trading partners, such as Canada and Mexico, have been unpredictable, to say the least. In fact, I was at a meeting just last night talking to ministers from Europe who are now considering how to de-risk themselves from the United States market because of the chaos they are seeing with respect to tariff policy. It is here, it is there, it is everywhere. And as I understand it, it was on this Committee just dealing with the small businesses in my community at home, predictability is one of the main things businesses need in order to decide about their investments to grow employees, to bring on new technologies, et cetera. So this unpredictability hurts the American economy and it inherently hurts main street businesses across the country. Mr. Arensmeyer, in your testimony, you speak on how unpredictable--the unpredictable nature of Trump administration's tariffs hurt small businesses. Can you speak more specifically about what you have heard from small businesses and what tariffs mean for local economies--we have heard some of that here in our Committee, I can tell you--and how tariffs might make economic planning increasingly difficult for such businesses? Mr. ARENSMEYER. We are hearing from small businesses on a regular basis that they have no idea how to plan. They have absolutely no idea how to plan. They are worried about costs. They worry when dealing with inflation. And now they have to worry about, you know, further inflation, if you will. You know, we have $3.3 trillion worth of imports into this country, and it is just all through the economy. So, you know, the average small business owner has all sorts of different ways that they are actually going to be impacted directly or indirectly with these tariffs, and they can't even begin to, you know, think about it. They have to think about all their different supplies, all the different things that they put into their product. And they have no time to plan. And they don't know, it could change tomorrow. So it has been--it is probably the single biggest thing we are hearing from businesses right now. Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you. On March 19, the President signed an executive order that seeks to dismantle the Department of Education. And we are going to say more about the significant impacts on New Jersey meeting with the Governor and others here later this week. And on top of that it is adding--it is cutting employees and adding $1.6 trillion in outstanding student loan debt to SBA's responsibility. Workforce reductions, 43 percent, as I have alluded to. And this change, and I know this legislation is seeking to effectuate that. But you have a shrinking workforce, increase in responsibility, and one wonders how the agency can possibly manage that change. How can SBA do this job, taking on new responsibilities while cutting the workforce by a significant percentage? And I will yield back. I will await your answer, sir. Mr. MEUSER. The gentleman's time has expired. I now recognize Mr. Stauber from Minnesota for 5 minutes. Mr. STAUBER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. And thanks to all the witnesses for being here and your testimony. Minnesota's Eighth Congressional District is home to hardworking minors, truckers, loggers, home builders, and energy workers. As their Representative, I hear one thing time and time again: Washington is making it harder for us to do our jobs. These men and women aren't asking for handouts; they are simply asking the government to get out of the way. As I mentioned earlier, I am glad to have one of my constituents joining us today, Mr. Elden Johnson. He is not just a business owner, he is a main street success story, a voice for rural America, and a firsthand witness to how Washington's red tape affects our way of life in northern Minnesota. Mr. Johnson, thank you for making the trip out here. Mr. Johnson, you have had to navigate the mandates related to heavy-duty vehicles. Are electric trucks a feasible option in rural America, and how would these rules affect your ability to deliver goods across Minnesota and the upper Midwest? Mr. JOHNSON. They are not feasible. In a word, no, not feasible. And if I was to comply with that, I would be completely out of business. We would have to close the doors. The one size fits all doesn't fit here in rural America with no infrastructure. Mr. STAUBER. So you have a truck loading up by Peterson Wood treating out of Superior, Wisconsin, when it is 25 below, you are not going to go to Ishpeming, Michigan, with an electric truck, are you? Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I personally wouldn't want to. Mr. STAUBER. You won't get there. Thank you. Mr. Hughes, nearly a quarter of the cost of a new home is now regulatory. Yet rulemaking agencies often tell small businesses that it won't cost much to comply with proposed regulation. You just gave an example in your earlier testimony that one energy rule or regulation, that Congress never voted on, cost a home $30,000, whether it is a bigger home or a smaller home. Can you elaborate on that? Mr. HUGHES. Well, as we said, it is not a one size fits all. And I am all about energy-efficient products and construction. But it absolutely has to be choice. It can't be mandated. I have three grandsons under the age of 10, and I am worried, at the pace we are going, they are not going to be able to own their own home---- Mr. STAUBER. Right. Mr. HUGHES.--even if pawpaw builds it. Mr. STAUBER. You know, we just had one of my colleagues talk about his personal experience with his own home. That is an example of personal choice. Mr. HUGHES. Correct. Mr. STAUBER. He wasn't forced to do it; he chose to do it. You know, under the Biden administration, they put rules and regulations to the tune of 1.3 rules and regulations per day across their administration that affected each and every one of you. We didn't get a vote on it. These are just rules and regulations that the bureaucrats in the back room think it is a good idea. We always talk about Main Street America. Small businesses are the engine of our economy. We have to support that. I have owned a small business for 31 years. We have since sold it. It is amazing the rules and regulations that came out of St. Paul, Minnesota, and our nation's capital. Mr. Johnson, that makes it more difficult for you to succeed and more difficult for these services to be provided to rural America. Mr. JOHNSON. Absolutely, without a doubt. Mr. STAUBER. I will just say that as we go into this next administration, President Trump has stated that for every rule or regulation that comes forward, 10 are going to be removed. You had one of my colleagues, and I think in good faith, say, which are the rules and regulations that are bothersome to you? I challenge you to bring those, all of them, to us. Bring 10 or 20 a week. We can talk about them. Because every time that I have asked somebody in a Small Business hearing, do you need more or less rules or regulations, they always say less. It is disruptive. So the four of you, raise your hand if you think that you need more rules and regulations on your small businesses to succeed. Raise your hand. Just like the other ones. It is just like the other hearings. Not one person raised their hands. And what we have to do is we have to make sure that our small businesses can succeed. And these bureaucrats in the back room in Washington that are putting these rules and regulations on you, it has to stop. And listen, it just didn't start overnight. It has been going this way for a long, long time. We have to, in a bipartisan fashion, stop this--stop these unnecessary rules and regulations that are punishing you. You are the engine of our economy. Ninety-nine percent of our businesses are small business. And I yield back. Mr. MEUSER. The gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr. Cisneros from California for 5 minutes. Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Look, I believe when done right, deregulation means increased competition and improves quality of goods and services and price decreases. When done right, deregulation can stimulate economic growth, reduce cost, and make businesses more difficult. But today's hearing is not about deregulation or how we can work across the aisle to actually help businesses. This hearing is an infomercial. As a coequal branch of government, we should be actively trying to shape how Congress wants support for small business to look like and not just seek to appease the executive by stating the name of our congressional hearing with ``the golden age.'' Our Committee also has oversight authority. We should be able to hold agencies accountable, and their leadership should come to this Committee room and explain actions or inactions. I have joined my colleagues in sending letters to the SBA, and they go unanswered. We sit through hearings to listen to what agencies, particularly the SBA, are doing and not doing; we ask witnesses questions to gouge the impact of actions by the SBA and the administration. But we need to bring the director of the SBA here. So with my time now, I am calling on this Committee to bring the administrator here to publicly answer our questions. If the administrator were here, I would want the following questions answered: What was the extent of DOGE's access to SBA headquarters and systems, and what was done the SBA to ensure that systems were not abused or accessed by individuals without clearance? What specific offices or departments within the SBA are affected by the announcement of 43 percent reduction in the workforce? Where is the SBA relocating the six regional offices, and will any other offices be closed in the future? How are we appropriating funds being used--or how are appropriated funds being used or not used with the SBA undergoing such drastic changes that Congress has not authorized? What is the SBA's plan to handle $1.7 trillion student loan portfolio with less staff and staff not trained to work with such a complex student loan system? In announcing the Made in America Manufacturing Initiative, you claim you will find $100 billion in cuts to regulations. Where are you going to find it, and how are you going to ensure cuts don't negatively impact small business owners? Also, in announcing the Made in America Manufacturing Initiative, did the SBA actively mislead Americans by stating that the previous administration was losing an average of 9,000 manufacturing jobs per month? On the last question, the SBA ignored the fact that manufacturing jobs rose by 721,000 during the first 3 years of the Biden administration. Some was part of the comeback from the pandemic-era job losses, but the Biden administration's final month numbers was still 12,000 manufacturing jobs higher than the last pre-pandemic month of President Trump's first term in office. The manufacturing employment gains under President Biden were in fact the strongest in 72 years. I sincerely hope the administrator comes before this Committee to work with us to help small businesses flourish because small businesses have fewer options than larger companies to navigate and survive the chaotic actions of the Trump administration. And with that, I yield back. Mr. MEUSER. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Wied from Wisconsin for 5 minutes. Mr. WIED. That you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing. And thank you to all of our witnesses for sharing their experiences with us today. It is undeniable that the previous administration was anti- business, anti-innovation, and anti-free market. I would like to once again highlight the $1.8 trillion of additional regulations that were needlessly imposed on businesses across this nation. To comply with these regulations, businesses were subjected to 360 million extra hours of paperwork. As a former small business owner, I know firsthand the disproportionate burden small businesses face to comply with additional regulations. When the government needlessly increases the cost of operating a business, those that cannot keep up are forced to close their doors. Those who do manage to stay open, spend their time focusing on staying afloat, while innovation and growing their businesses take a backseat. Working with the Trump administration, Republicans are committed to repealing these harmful regulations and reorienting the Small Business Administration to, first and foremost, help support small business owners instead of continuing to crush them with regulation after regulation. In just over 2 months, the Trump administration has stopped an additional $180 billion in regulations proposed by the Biden administration. I look forward to continuing our work to reverse the Biden administration's burdensome regulatory war and allow small businesses to grow, innovate, and prosper. So, Mr. Montalban, the Republicans on this Committee are steadfast in their mission to reduce the massive number in regulations imposed by the previous administration and to promote the extension of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act signed into law by President Trump. If taxes and regulatory burdens levied on your businesses are reduced, what are the downstream effects for your customers? Mr. MONTALBAN. Well, Congressman, unfortunately, we are just the producer of crude oil and natural gas that comes to your home or to your vehicles. But I can tell you that the regulations that have been brought upon us over the last 4 years were to put us out of business, and they were done through the EPA. This cost us literally, personally on a couple of wells over 100,000 on one well and over 400,000 on another well. So the bottom line was they were doing everything they could to put us out of business through regulations. Mr. WIED. Thank you. Mr. Hughes, what current impacts are home buyers facing as a result of increased regulations place on home builders? As you know, homes can take several years to construct. It is very difficult to, you know, even to buy land to develop property because of all of the regulations. How do the current regulations hinder the construction of new homes in the coming years? Mr. HUGHES. I guess mainly the added cost, also added time. And there have just been no thought to that added cost. And what that does to--especially the beginner or the first-time homeowner that I mentioned before. It has just about put them out. Our numbers suggest that every time we add $1,000 to the cost of a new home, you force 100,000--it is actually a little over 100,000--116,000 buyers out of the market. Mr. WIED. Thank you. Mr. Arensmeyer, on your organization's website, you mention entrenched discriminatory policies that create obstacles for businesses owned by people of color, women, and immigrants. So what is a specific SBA policy that has this discrimination written into law, and why hasn't the Biden administration repealed that policy? Mr. ARENSMEYER. I don't believe, Congressman, we are referring to actions like government. I think we are referring to situations in the market that have created dislocations and differences in opportunities. And our organization is dedicated at looking to where those issues are, regardless. And we believe government has an obligation to kind of focus on where the need is the greatest. So it isn't so much about accusing the government of doing something, it is truly just stating a reality, an economic reality. Mr. WIED. So you weren't referring to the SBA on your website specifically? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Not that the SBA was doing anything discriminatory, no. Mr. WIED. Okay. Mr. ARENSMEYER. If I understand your question. Mr. WIED. Okay. No, I was just--on your website--it said, Yet these entrepreneurs encounter many obstacles due to entrenched discriminatory policies and practices, challenges that have only been exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic. I didn't know if you were referring to the SBA specifically. Mr. ARENSMEYER. I don't believe we were. Mr. WIED. You weren't. Okay. So if a policy or practice explicitly favors a certain category of people over others, would you consider that to be discriminatory? Mr. ARENSMEYER. I think it is an obligation of government to look at where the need is the greatest and look at the economic need. And you find the greatest economic need in, you know, certain communities, urban communities, rural opportunities. It is not limited to a particular race or demographic. And there are programs in place that address those needs, and we support those. Mr. MEUSER. The gentleman's time has expired. Mr. WIED. I yield back. Thank you. Mr. MEUSER. The gentleman yields. I now recognize Mr. Tran from California for 5 minutes. Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Ranking Member. To all the witnesses, I appreciate you being here today. Mr. Arensmeyer, many of my colleagues on this Committee make regulations out to be this unyielding bureaucratic bogeyman for small businesses. But regulations can also benefit the economy through leveling the playing field, incentivizing innovation, and protecting American innovation from threats like the Chinese Communist Party stealing our intellectual property. Can you share some of the stories from small businesses within your organization? Mr. ARENSMEYER. I mean, again, it is about setting up a level playing field. For example, in terms of lending, we see a lot of irresponsible lending going on targeting the most vulnerable small business owners, and you need regulations in order to guard against that. Price discrimination, the SEC was attempting to deal with. Again, it is the role of government to step in and try to create a level playing field. So franchise, unequal franchise relationships, you know, the list goes on. And that is a function of government to do that. And that is why we--we heard a lot about the cost of regulations, but it is really about a cost-benefit analysis. We are the first to argue that perhaps there are regulations out there where the cost is greater than the benefit, and we should look at those. But you have got to look at the benefit side. If you only look at the cost side of things, we wouldn't have had the PPP. Yes, the PPP created some obligations for small businesses, but it was a huge benefit as well. So just looking at the cost side of the Biden policies, there was a lot of manufacturing and other money that was-- passed by this Congress. Obviously, regulations came along with that. So, again, across the board, we need to be looking at what are the benefits and what are the costs. And we are certain there are cases where the costs outweigh the benefits, and those should be addressed. Mr. TRAN. I agree with that. And thank you. To continue on, Mr. Arensmeyer. On March 14 of 2025, the President issued an executive directing that Minority Business Development Agency, MBDA, be eliminated to the maximum extent consistent with applicable law. The Agency which was created by President Nixon in 1969 and codified into law by Congress with bipartisan support in 2021 has been widely successful. In fact, in fiscal year 2024 alone, the Agency helped the country's more than 12 million minority businesses access $1.5 billion in capital and create or retain approximately 23,000 jobs. What message is the Trump administration sending to small businesses by eliminating the Minority Business Development Agency? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Well, as you mentioned, Congressman, the MBDA has done a lot of good work. They have 26 offices across the country that are serving small businesses. And on top of that, they are a conduit for a large chunk of the State Small Business Credit Initiative technical assistance money that, by the way, they haven't distributed all of it. You have got about $62 million sitting there. With them going away, who knows if that is going to get distributed. So they have performed a valuable function. Just to sort of wipe them off the face of the Earth is absolutely not the way you are going to help small businesses. Mr. TRAN. Thank you, Chairman. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of Pennsylvania for 5 minutes. Mr. MEUSER. I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. And thanks to all of you very much. You know, obviously, our Committee has oversight over the SBA, but we are also about advocating and fighting for small businesses. We are really the only Committee here in Congress. That is our focus. Not just the SBA, but working for you. And what I am hearing here today is what I hear when I go to my chamber events, when I am doing my main street walkabouts, during COVID, post-COVID, these days, that during the last 4 years have been very, very tough on small businesses. That is just the reality. You know, there is nothing political there. I mean, inflation, supplies were difficult. We had excessive IRS and OSHA drive-bys because they didn't' have any better systems to do anything with, so they were just stopping in on small businesses and creating all kinds of havoc. Of course, inflation. Okay. Twenty percent during the course over the last 4 years. Energy, up and down to keep your company going, to the cost of logistics and distribution. Workforce issues. I mean, taxes. Taxes. We have lost--taxes have gone up from bonus depreciation to the R&D tax credit. The list goes on. And now, you know, 199-A is in jeopardy if we don't pass the incoming tax relief that our friends to the left like saying, oh, that is nothing but tax cuts for the rich. Okay. You know, no, it is for all the small businesses that have the 199-A. And by the way, sir, your organization advocates against 199-A. So I don't even know what to make of that. That is a 20 percent--I have it in writing, okay. You want a $25,000 tax relief for small businesses and doing away with 199-A. So let's just get real, as some of our colleagues said. Look, we need to work on the regulatory cost. That is what this administration is going to be about. I mean, things like the beneficial ownership rule that took place. The CFPB. My God, I don't think there is anybody on Earth or in America that was favorable to the CFPB, except maybe someone on the political end of things. The 1071 final rule. A lot of problems that we need to fix. So, Mr. Hughes, you mentioned that approximately 25 percent of the cost to a new home is attributable to government regulations. Can you discuss, if you wouldn't mind, briefly, how regulations have led to increased--these housing costs? Mr. HUGHES. Well, touch on the same things. Added codes, added storm water regulations that simply aren't needed. When storm water regulations were first put into practice, they were, and large enough projects they are. But, again, using the same term, one size doesn't fit all. So added regulations from the ground up. Impact fees, which vary tremendously over the country. We are fortunate in North Carolina, we don't have a lot of impact fees. But it has been a battle since the mid-1980s. Mr. MEUSER. Right. What about HUD's minimum energy standard? I don't mean to interrupt you, but---- Mr. HUGHES. That is fine. And that goes right back to that added cost to comply with IECC 21. We are looking at $30,000 to $35,000 added cost per house. Mr. MEUSER. Right. Thank you. We are going to work on it. The regulatory onslaught, Mr. Montalban, if you could try to sum up regarding energy development in the U.S. I mean, obviously, you have been talking about it. Maybe you would just share some other real-life situations. Mr. MONTALBAN. Thank you, Congressman. The bottom line with the small independents is they are trying to regulate us through the EPA on the underground injection control program and the Department of Interior on the bonding program. And the key issues for the small independents would be percentage depletion and the intangible drilling costs. Mr. MEUSER. All right. Thank you. The idea of cutting 10 regulations for each new regulation, certainly after the last four years, that is not very difficult. Mr. Johnson, share with us two or three of the regulations that you find are most harmful to your business. Mr. JOHNSON. The ELD mandate, the electric logging mandate, some of the EPA regs, and the electric vehicle mandate that is coming is the three that scare us the most. Mr. MEUSER. All right. Great. Thanks for sharing that. Now, the TCJA, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, of course, most Democrats hate just because it was implemented during the Trump administration. How important is that to your business? Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I am not sure how to answer that one, sir. Mr. MEUSER. Okay. The 199A, 20 percent small business tax relief bonus depreciation. Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes. It is a big part. My business saved $11,000 last year. Very, very small business, saved $11,000 last year alone. Mr. MEUSER. And what did you do with that money? You put it back into your business, grew, became stronger, maybe hired somebody? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. It just goes right back in. It all goes right back into the business. It isn't some golden nest egg. Mr. MEUSER. Exactly. Thank you, sir. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Chairman WILLIAMS. Gentleman yields back. I now recognize Ms. Simon from the great State of California for 5 minutes. Ms. SIMON. Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Ranking Member Velazquez. And thank you, witnesses, for coming in. I have learned a lot in the short period of time about real hurdles that I think it is important for us all to acknowledge. But before I get into my comments, what I am struck by is we are talking about regulations and the causation of hurting main street all over the country. And I am so excited to serve on this Committee because in this moment in time, clearly, there are ways that we could be supporting small businesses with more efficiency. That said, I find it difficult to talk about regulation being sort of the poisonous factor in the economy when right now, in this moment, the SBA just took on work that it knows that it cannot do. And for small business owners like the ones represented here today, because of SBA making the decision to shutter offices in critical areas in the United States, fire thousands of workers who are critical to those small business owners being able to access the small opportunities that we provide, they are not huge opportunities, they keep businesses moving, we are firing staff, we are shuttering offices, and, lastly, we have made the decision to take on federal student loan provision in the SBA. You tell me who is directing the ship if we truly are about supporting mom-and-pop businesses in the United States of America? A couple of weeks ago, I hosted an event for over seven chambers in my district. Those key leaders were clear to me that it wasn't regulation that was keeping businesses shuttered. These challenges that these chamber leaders representing thousands of businesses in my district, they lifted up that it was the lack of access to capital, and that already, when they called the SBA, it was hard to get through, the websites weren't working. They talked about issues that the SBA could do better in providing in real time, like translation services. These chambers talked about the work that they have had to do almost alone to lift up main streets and broadways across my district since COVID. None of them talked about overregulation as a challenge. So, in fact, three out of four small businesses want government to do more, to come in, to chip in, to answer the phone, to follow up on the website inquiry. But, no, we are shutting offices; no, we are firing staff; no, we are taking on hundreds of thousands of student loans. So I ask us, what are we really here doing? What are we really talking about? If we really cared about small business, we would be having a very different conversation. I am curious, to the witness, the Democratic witness--thank you, sir, for coming today. I know one of the issues that many of us in the United States Congress are struggling with is with the shattering of the CFPB. The work that the organization did, this federal agency did, was to protect not just elderly people fighting scams, but the small business owner. And I know the CFPB worked in conjunction with the SBA. I am curious, how would you in this moment, sir, explain how the regulations preventing medical debt, for instance, from being reported on credit score reports might help a small business? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Well, Congresswoman, as everyone at this table can attest, your personal credit is absolutely essential, especially when you are starting a small business, and for many years of growing a small business. So if medical debt reduces your credit rating, inability to get loans because of your credit situation, that absolutely impacts business. And there is a real intersection, especially with smaller businesses and a lot of new businesses that have been started, self-employed businesses, where personal and business debt are essentially the same thing. The only regulation, the only provision of Dodd-Frank that related directly to small businesses was 1071, which was simply track where you are making the loan so we know, so we get information, so we can do a better job, so the industry can do a better job targeting people and making sure there is a broader range of credits available. So the CFPB was actually beneficial to small business, both in terms of 1071 and in terms of helping entrepreneurs avoid scams and be able to improve their credit. Ms. SIMON. Thank you. You have just made my point, that we are making work harder for small business owners. We are making their lives less equitable in this moment. And I want to thank all of you all for being here today. Thank you. Chairman WILLIAMS. Gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Mr. Bresnahan from the great State of Pennsylvania for 5 minutes. Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you, Chairman Williams, for holding today's hearing. As many of our witnesses pointed out today, the last 4 years have been brutal for our small businesses, from COVID shutdowns and supply chain issues to runaway inflation, and we will focus on today, an overburdensome regulatory environment. Many of our small businesses were crushed by this wave and did not survive. Many of those that did survive only did so by the skin on their teeth. We must begin now to get back to our small businesses and entrepreneurs who are disproportionately affected by this mountain of regulation. The current state of regulation in America is an opportunity cost. Just a few months ago I was in the same situation as our witnesses, balancing my company's budget and being forced to make tough decisions that affected the future of my company. I could give a laundry list of what I wished I could do with the profits, but too often I was forced to divert funds and working hours towards compliance of the complex and often unnecessary network of regulations. Large corporations can survive this. Another fee to a lawyer or hiring an additional compliance officer or even a government affairs team won't make a dent on their income statement. To our small businesses, however, the legal fees and fines from regulations are make-or-break costs. I look forward to working with our small businesses, this Committee, and the administration to cut the red tape holding back economic growth in America. Now I would like to ask a few questions to the panel. Mr. Johnson, I am sure if your business is anything like mine, taking a day to come to Washington, D.C., here to testify means a lot. So I do appreciate you coming here to hear firsthand what it is like for small businesses to go through. But I was a heavy highway electrical contractor in my past life. We had about 350 pieces of equipment on the road. Are there any specific regulatory challenges that you would hope to see ease through this administration? Mr. JOHNSON. Just the EPA mandates. The ones that we have are not working. I am sure that there are better solutions than what we had. What we have isn't working. That is our biggest hurdle, I believe. Mr. BRESNAHAN. What was it like--I mean, what was it, 2008, when the dry DPF took into a place? I know we ran a bunch of Ford F-550 bucket trucks with the old 7.3 inside of them. And, I mean, constantly we were dealing with the DPF filter and needing to go into the D-rate situation. Has the compliance or at least the wet DPF been any more beneficial or easier to run? Mr. JOHNSON. No, no. Very troublesome. Repair bills all the time. Trucks down all the time. One of my constituents in northern Minnesota had 21 trucks in the logging industry, and he said he needed 21 to keep 15 on the road every day just because of the sensors in the cold weather. And these things don't work, one size fits all doesn't work in our industry. Mr. BRESNAHAN. I appreciate that and echo your comments and concerns. And, actually, the city of Philadelphia implemented a diesel particulate filter requirement for anything over 50 horsepower where you have to go to a Tier 4 diesel. And if you can even acquire or procure that specific piece of equipment, it was hard to come by, specifically during the COVID era. How have the regulations affected your business' ability to compete with larger firms? Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we don't have a lot of DEF trucks, only a few. I think we are all on the same level. They are suffering just as much as we are. The big companies still have the same problems, it is still the same trucks, it is still the same issues, it is still the same repair bill, it is still the same employee that goes home that day without work. Mr. BRESNAHAN. I will redirect my questions to Mr. Montalban. I recently had the EPA Administrator, Lee Zeldin, in my district to talk about the energy demands needed to grow our manufacturing base and economy. How have the Biden administration's regulations held back our energy industry? And what can Congress do to unleash our domestic energy production to meet the demands of the 21st century economy? And the reason I ask that is I am from northeastern Pennsylvania. Wayne County, by some estimates, has $900 million worth of natural gas under our own feet. And with the explosion of AI data centers we are constantly looking for increased energy production, specifically for electricity. But can you point to one regulation that totally crippled our ability to produce domestically? Mr. MONTALBAN. Thank you, Congressman. It is very easy. The methane rules and how the methane rules, both subpart W and the Quato B and Quato C, brought us into the regulations to put us out of business. And I would like to touch with the other Members of this Committee that we are regulated, and we work with the EPA, the port of oil and gas, the Department of Interior. Chairman WILLIAMS. Gentleman's time is up. Mr. MONTALBAN. And so we have many regulatory bodies. Chairman WILLIAMS. Gentleman's time is up. Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize Mrs. McIver from the great State of New Jersey for 5 minutes. Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you, Chairman, and to my Ranking Member Velazquez, for having this hearing. And thank you to our witnesses for joining us today. At a time when small businesses are driving economic growth, the role of smart, effective regulations has never been more critical. Regulations provide the foundation for fair competition, ensuring that entrepreneurs, no matter their background, have a real chance to succeed. Strong regulations protect small businesses from predatory practices, promote access to capital, and create an environment where innovation can thrive. In my home district, the 10th Congressional District of New Jersey, we saw firsthand how regulatory safeguards put in place by the Biden-Harris administration helped usher in the historic growth among small businesses. We must continue to ensure that critical protections remain in place to protect small businesses against large corporations, help create jobs, and preserve the American dream for future generations of entrepreneurs. With that being said, I have a few follow-up questions to some of the comments that were made today. Mr. Hughes, specifically you spent a lot of time talking about the cost on building and how it hasn't increased. Do you think that the cost of building was cheaper before COVID-19? Mr. HUGHES. Sure, it was. It was cheaper prior. But I don't feel like there was a connection with COVID that had---- Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you. So basically it was cheaper to build before COVID-19. You have not mentioned that through all of your talks about some of the elements of the cost of housing. I know in the 10th Congressional District, and in New Jersey specifically, we have a shortage of about 200,000 affordable housing units specifically that we are dealing with right now. And many times when I speak to small developers, they talk about the cost around COVID-19, before COVID-19, and how materials went up and the cost of that. But you have not mentioned that in talking about some of the cost of that, some of the reasons for the cost now based off the past administration and now. With the new tariffs being introduced, Mr. Hughes, what kind of impact do you see, especially on steel and lumber? Mr. HUGHES. It will have a huge impact because it involves so many of the materials that we use--copper, aluminum, steel, lumber. And like I said earlier, we have dealt with tariffs for years. That is nothing new for us. And as has been mentioned, it makes it very unpredictable, hard for us to know where the cost is going. Mrs. MCIVER. However, but these new tariffs on lumber specifically and steel are based upon this current administration, the Trump administration, not previously. Mr. HUGHES. Sure. Mrs. MCIVER. Just want to put that out there on the record. And then, secondly, I do want to mention something. You spent a lot of time, and I heard one of my Members across the aisle talk about it, too, about the waste of some of the standards that we have now and how that drives costs up, which I could understand that. And I think that different agencies, especially ones that we govern in Congress, should do something more to be able to help small developers in some of these standards, but it doesn't mean that the standards are a waste of time. Specifically, I want to point out for those that may not be aware and just for their own knowledge the importance of energy standards. One, energy efficiency construction. We need that especially in our urban cities. Energy savings for renters. I am sure many families would love to save on energy, especially in my district who are seeing the costs go up in energy. Enhancing comfort and health, always very important with the new energy standards being introduced. And lastly, reducing the carbon footprint, which is very important. We need eco-friendly housing in our communities, especially in those that I represent in New Jersey. With that, I yield. Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back. I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana for 5 minutes. Mr. DOWNING. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you to the witnesses. My background, I have built businesses in highly regulated industries. You may say I am a glutton for punishment. I have done it in securities and insurance and alcohol. So I have seen how heavy-handed regulation can cause problems, not just in running a business but also in raising capital. When you are trying to attract capital, if you have a bar that is always changing in the regulatory environment, it is hard to get capital if they don't know where that bar is going to be. You can always plan a business to a bar being someplace. So I have seen how that--how heavy-handed regulation can stifle growth, stifle investment, stifle job creation, stifle innovation, and how ambiguity in this regulation causes the problems I talked about of attracting capital. And end of the day, you want to build a business, you need to somehow find out how to fund it. Money is what drives so many things in this regulatory environment and cause problems. I am particularly excited to be joined here by a fellow Montanan, Mr. Montalban--thank you for being here--deeply rooted in Montana's energy sector, and I appreciate that. Thank you for being here today. And I want to talk to you about how the last administration has deeply hampered American energy production, hurting our ability to provide affordable, reliable, resilient power to our communities. I think about that all the time in energy. Reliable, affordable is important to building that American dream. So I want to just quickly, how did the Biden administration's overbearing environmental regulations make it difficult for Montana oil and gas producers like yourself to operate? Mr. MONTALBAN. Thank you, Congressman Downing. The methane rules with subpart W and Quato B, Quato C bringing us into testing of all the wells in Montana was critical and very damaging to the small independent. But the biggest one that we are seeing now is the EPA with the underground injection control program and holding up permits in Region 8 in Denver, Colorado. Mr. DOWNING. Thank you. Last year, the Biden administration's Bureau of Land Management, BLM, released its final fluid mineral leases and leasing process rule. This rule significantly increased the financial bonding requirements for oil and gas operations in order to cover for the abandonment of wells. Again to Mr. Montalban, how has this rule disproportionately impacted your business and smaller oil and gas operations across our country? Mr. MONTALBAN. Thank you again, Congressman Downing. As we mentioned earlier, a single well bond went from 10,000 to 150,000; multiple well bond went from 25,000 to 500,000. We cannot by surety bonds, you are well aware of that. Mr. DOWNING. Right, right. Mr. MONTALBAN. So these are cash bonds. And on the other side of that, we are also well bonded on the EPA, the BLM, the State of Montana side. So the bottom line is that that has taken away all possibilities of buying and selling transaction on federal lands. Mr. DOWNING. Thank you. Do you believe that the BLM under the Biden administration adequately consulted and took into consideration the concerns of the oil and gas producers while drafting this rule? Mr. MONTALBAN. Congressman Downing, indeed, great question. I can give you an example of Bill Fulton out of Billings, Montana, that contacted the BLM during this process, and he wanted more time to give his partners and royalty owners time to answer and ask questions about this, and they would not even allow him to do that. Mr. DOWNING. Thank you. Going back to one of my themes, on the American Dream, I think of the American Dream as being able to buy your first home, and I wonder how young families are able to do this. So I am going to move on here to Mr. Hughes. One of the things that struck me in your testimony is pointing out that over 100,000 households would be priced out of the housing market if the median new home price in the United States raises by a thousand dollars. This is while 75 percent of U.S. households already are unable to afford a median price new home. That is incredibly concerning to me. So, Mr. Hughes, in this environment, do we need more or less regulation in the home construction industry? Mr. HUGHES. Well, obviously, we think we need a lot less. And there are other things that we could focus on rather than continuing to increase the regulation. The reality is that homes that we have built in the last 20 years really performed very well. But the existing stock is where a lot of our energy is wasted. And we would like to see more focus put on that. Mr. DOWNING. Right. And in the Biden-Granholm Department of Energy, they created numerous restrictive energy efficiency standards for household appliances, like refrigerators, air conditioners, lighting. How have these regulations impacted the home builders and the average American family's ability to buy a home? Mr. HUGHES. Well, just the increased regulation on appliances is a whole nother can of worms that we could talk on forever. And we do see those starting to back off some. Mr. DOWNING. I have run out of time. Thank you for your answers. I yield, Mr. Chair. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields. I now recognize Dr. Morrison from the great State of Minnesota for 5 minutes. Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for holding this hearing. And thanks to our witnesses for your testimony. I acknowledge that regulations can create additional requirements for small businesses, and as a physician, I am also acutely aware of the important role that regulations play in keeping Americans safe and healthy. Heat is a leading cause of weather-related deaths in the United States. Excessive heat in the workplace can cause heat stroke and even death if not treated properly. Heat injury and illness prevention standards help prevent workers from succumbing to heat-related illnesses and being hospitalized. Flooding is the most frequent and costly natural disaster in the United States. Flood risk management standards help reduce the effects of current and future flood hazards, helping prevent our homes from being destroyed by flooding. As climate change intensifies storms and increases the severity of hurricanes, we need federal standards to ensure that our communities are more resilient to extreme flooding. Many EPA regulations ensure that toxins do not end up in our environment, our air and our water. EPA's underground injection program's regulations do ensure that the brine from oil and gas extraction that contain toxic metals and radioactive substances does not contaminate people's drinking water. These are just a few of the many examples of why regulations, when implemented correctly, are important tools for reducing harm. One way we can reduce the burden of regulations on small businesses is by creating a consistent and predictable regulatory environment. Mr. Arensmeyer, during your testimony you said that small business owners across the country look to their representatives in government to help provide certainty, predictability, and stability in the business environment in which they operate. How does the unpredictable and haphazard rolling back of regulations impact small businesses and affect their ability to plan for the future? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Well, small businesses, as we have said, really need as much predictability and certainty as possible. And we all recognize there may be need to address regulations. But once regulations are in place and you have kind of gone through the analysis, you want to lock them in. And small businesses then will adapt. And, as heard, it is sometimes costly for them to change. So if you have certain regulations governing a certain way to do things and all of a sudden you come in and say, well, maybe that wasn't so good, we are going to change it, that is actually a cost to small business. So we need to look at not only the sort of cost of the original regulation, but you need to look at costs of going in and tinkering with that. Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, sir. In addition to introducing regulatory uncertainty, the Trump administration's trade policies have been erratic and unpredictable, I think, at best. Proposing, then pausing, then ultimately implementing tariffs on Canada and Mexico has created uncertainty for small businesses and consumers. I worry that President Trump's volatile trade policies will have dreadful consequences for our economy, with President Trump himself admitting that his tariffs will cause a period of transition. Small businesses often operate on smaller margins than larger businesses, so a period of transition could be enough to force small businesses to close their doors permanently. Mr. Arensmeyer, again, could you describe how economic periods of short-term pain caused by tariffs will be especially impactful on small businesses? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Well, we have already seen a whipsawing of this dating back even before President Trump took office. Small businesses all of a sudden were saying we have got to go out and buy extra inventory, which is also inefficient in many cases; in some cases the businesses don't have the cash to do that. And since President Trump has come into office, we have seen this whipsawing back and forth. Even today--tomorrow, I guess, is the big day--we are not really sure what is going to happen. And as I mentioned, you have got so many different elements in the supply chain that are impacted by these; in many cases for small businesses might have multiple ones. They don't really know, depending the country it comes from, depending on what the product is. We have got an ice cream shop in our network, and he gets his sprinkles from Canada. I mean, who knew? So it is everywhere. And the more volatility you have, the more uncertainty based on country, based on product. It just makes it impossible for small businesses to do any kind of planning. Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to all of our witnesses. I just want to end by saying that I hope that we can all agree that we should reduce regulations where costs outweigh the benefits and cut down on unnecessary bureaucratic red tape, and that we should issue this in a responsible--we should approach this in a responsible manner. And I am open to working with my Republican colleagues to do just that. And with that, thank you, Mr. Chair. I see that my time has expired, so I will yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. Gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Mr. Finstad from the great State of Minnesota for 5 minutes. Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Chairman Williams, and thank you for holding this Committee hearing today. Thank you to our witnesses for taking time away from your businesses to come here and share your stories with us. As a small business owner myself, I have seen the impact of regulations and the mounting compliance costs and what they can have on a small business. The Biden administration alone--and we have heard it over and over again today--has added in the last 4 years over $1.8 trillion in new regulatory compliance costs. But a point that hasn't been talked about that is as important and as devastating, I think, to small businesses is over the 356 million hours in paperwork that it has caused small businesses. The last 4 years have been the most burdensome regulatory environment in history. In 1980, Congress passed the Regulatory Flexibility Act to protect small businesses from these type of burdens. Unfortunately, the Biden administration disregarded the law to push a far left agenda that has hurt our small businesses and communities. So with that being said, I want to talk to a fellow Minnesotan, Mr. Johnson. And that couldn't be more of a Minnesota name. There are about 10,000 Mr. Johnsons in Minnesota. So, Mr. Johnson, as a fellow Minnesotan small business owner, you know firsthand the impact of overregulation and what it has had on small business owners. Last year the House passed my legislation, the PROVE IT Act, to strengthen the RFA and protect small businesses from these impacts. In part, the PROVE IT Act would force agencies to consider the true cost of their regulations, force agencies to comply with the RFA, and give small businesses a seat at the table in the regulatory process. If agencies fail to comply with the law, small businesses would be exempt from that regulation. Do you think, Mr. Johnson, that federal agencies should be required to comply with existing law that requires them to limit their impact on small businesses? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. Agencies are not lawmakers. They need to be held accountable when they disregard protections for the small businesses that have been enacted by Congress and signed by the President. Mr. FINSTAD. So you have all talked about different regulations maybe in general, but there has been some specifics. Mr. Johnson, do you know by name the faceless, maybe nameless bureaucrat that is establishing those rules or regulations that you have to comply with? Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir, I do not. Mr. FINSTAD. So come election time, you can't throw them out of office? Mr. JOHNSON. No, I cannot. Mr. FINSTAD. Right. Okay. In your opinion, do you believe agencies should consider both the direct and indirect costs, like the paperwork hours, that their regulations put on small businesses? Mr. JOHNSON. Yeah. The true cost of regulations is actually behind the scenes in all the time it takes to comply with it, the paperwork hours and just simply the filings and filings and filings that never end. Mr. FINSTAD. So, Mr. Johnson, as I said earlier, I am a small business owner myself. And I would assume it is probably similar to you; you don't have a stable full of lawyers, compliance officers, regulatory specialists. You go down the list. Mr. JOHNSON. All of the above, right here. Mr. FINSTAD. So it is safe to say that you are the janitor, the carpenter, the mechanic, the HR professional, the legal adviser, the master time card keeper, all of it. Mr. JOHNSON. Absolutely. And what I can't do, I have to hire done with compliance companies. You have to have compliance companies to keep you compliant now because of all the rules. Mr. FINSTAD. So, lastly, Mr. Johnson, do you think small business owners like yourself should have a larger voice in our nation's regulatory process? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. I believe we should be heard. And maybe they should be tailored to meet our needs, not just a one size fits all. Mr. FINSTAD. Yeah, and that is a good point. And I heard some of my colleagues in the minority that had talked about regulations as a way to level the playing field. And the fact of the matter is, if you are a small mom-and-pop business, Small Business America, it isn't leveling the playing field, because you are the carpenter, the janitor, the timekeeper, the HR director, the everything, and you don't have the man-hours, where maybe a large business can take that cost over their bandwidth. And so it does put us, as a small business, on an unlevel playing field. So I want to just thank you all again for being here. I know this costs time and money and effort. I am sure some of you woke up this morning making sure your employees were at work, where your trucks were heading today, and I know that is a stressful situation. So I appreciate you taking time. Mr. Chair, I would also like to submit into the record a letter from the Associated Builders and Contractors, a letter of support of the PROVE IT Act. Chairman WILLIAMS. So moved. Mr. FINSTAD. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And, again, thank you, witnesses, for being here. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. Gentleman yields back. I now recognize Ms. Scholten from the great State of Michigan for 5 minutes. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here. Two years ago a groundbreaking story broke out in my district about children, some as young as my two boys, working in factories where foods like the breakfast cereals that many of us eat across America, Lucky Charms and Cheerios, are packaged. These children were handling machinery that could tear their fingers off. The company used a staffing agency to hire workers for this plant, but did not require the agency to verify ages against Social Security numbers. Regulations keep us safe. Regulations protect some of the most vulnerable among us. Regulations protect our children. Regulations themselves are not the enemy. But regulations that are overly burdensome, overly cumbersome, and don't do the work that they set out to do are the problem, and we need to be clear-eyed when we talk about that. Mr. Arensmeyer, how can Congress do a better job of ensuring businesses know the, quote, ``rules of the road'' when it comes to regulations that keep workers safe? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Well, a couple things. First of all, Congress has an oversight role. And we have heard again that the RFA may not be working all that well. Congress has an opportunity to identify that and to make suggestions. Congress can also make sure there is enough funding to help small businesses, to support the Office of Ombudsman at the SBA, to make sure small businesses understand and get the support that they need. A lot of the time some small businesses simply need to know--they need help, they need understanding. So making sure that those resources are in place. So it is the oversight and making sure that there is enough money being allocated to make sure the regulations are being implemented in a fair way. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. My district in west Michigan is home to one of our State's 46 Community Development Financial Institutions, or CDFIs. These CDFIs have deployed billions in loans in my home State, resulting in over 41,000 permanent jobs and 27 million square feet of real estate development. There are about 25,000 small and micro businesses in Michigan that have benefited from the support of a CDFI. Mr. Arensmeyer, coming back to you. Your testimony highlights how the Trump administration's recent executive order to dismantle CDFI funds which provide funding to CDFIs around the country would impact small firms. If the CDFI Fund cannot support CDFIs like the one in my district, what kind of impact can we expect on our local economy? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Well, small businesses--the marketplace has frozen out a lot of businesses who don't have the collateral, don't have the credit score of some better-off businesses. And so there are government programs that support that. And the CDFI, the CRA, the Community Reinvestment Act, provides for private financial institutions to put money into a system where that is more mission-driven. But the CDFI Fund also supports that. And, again, it is a cut that is directly impacting the most underresourced businesses. There is no other way to put it. And we are pleased to see that in the Senate there is actually bipartisan pushback on that, really pretty strong bipartisan pushback. So hopefully--we are hoping that perhaps the House will also take a look at that because these are--CDFIs exist in every red, blue, and otherwise district in this country. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. One last comment and question for you. Another thing that regulations can do is provide a stable economic environment helping people to understand that there are rules of the road to follow. I just came back from hosting two in-person town halls in my district last week, hundreds and hundreds of people showing up at each one. My constituents are worried about the myriad of uncertainties coming out of this administration, one of them being the detainment of individuals who are legally working here, detained just because of the color of their skin, they happen to have a tattoo that, God forbid, promotes autism awareness or celebrates their mom and dad. In Michigan, our service and hospitality industries rely heavily on immigrant workers. Mr. Arensmeyer, can you speak to the economic impact these industries will face if they are unable to find and keep the workers that they need? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Well, small businesses are already facing huge pressures on workforce coming out of the pandemic, and that has continued. And now to not only have employees rounded up, but the fear of that happening so they don't even come to work has created--it has impacted operations. And, again, it gets back to this whole issue of certainty, if you don't know that you have got a workforce. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady's time is up. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you, Mr. Arensmeyer. Mr. ARENSMEYER. Big impact. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Appreciate it. Yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. Gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Ms. Goodlander from the great State of New Hampshire for 5 minutes. Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to our witnesses for being here today. I want to pick up where you just left off, sir. You, in your written testimony, pointed out that the National Federation of Independent Business has released last month its uncertainty index, which rose to the second-highest reading on record last month. Can you speak to--I have traveled all across New Hampshire. If I had to capture the word that describes how small businesses are feeling across my State, it is ``uncertain.'' It is the crippling uncertainty of a trade war with Canada, our neighbor to the north. New Hampshire shares a 58-mile border with Canada. So many of our small businesses rely on that partnership, which has been a model for the world. Can you tell us more, why do you think we are at record high levels of uncertainty in this country? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Well, for all the reasons you have stated. The fear of not knowing what is happening with tariffs, the attacks on a workforce that small business owners need, the gutting of programs that are vital to small businesses. And it is coming like a tsunami. I mean, this is not like a little bit here, a little bit there. This is like in the last two months, it has just been hurtling at small businesses. And they are really, I will tell you, they are really scared. We talk to them every day. They are petrified. And they don't know where it is going. And as I said before, we have this big sort of event tomorrow and they don't even know what is going to happen. The administration--the President could change his mind and decide I am not going to have this tariff this month; maybe next month. So it is--we have never seen anything like this before. Ms. GOODLANDER. I heard from one of my constituents in Hopkinton, New Hampshire, who wrote to me to say that the threat of a trade war and the tariffs that have been imposed so far are causing customers to cancel projects and suppliers to preemptively raise prices for tariffs that may or may not materialize. Can you talk to us about how consumers are going to feel the pain of a trade war with Canada? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Well, absolutely. If this impacts businesses' ability to deliver products, then that is going to impact consumers. And one way or the other, you are going to see price increases. The whole notion that somehow everything we are doing is to bring down inflation, it is the exact opposite. If you can't get workers, if you are getting huge price hikes and you don't know if you are going to get huge price hikes and so you are making business decisions that are inefficient, ultimately, that is going to be reflected in higher prices as well. So consumers are absolutely going to feel the pain. Ms. GOODLANDER. We have got a housing crisis in New Hampshire, and we have got a real imperative to build tens of thousands more homes in the next 5 years. This is a problem that I have found partnership with people at every level of government in New Hampshire, and it is a problem that I am really committed to addressing. There was some talk about the median single family home price in this country. In New Hampshire, it is above $500,000. I wanted to ask you, Mr. Hughes, I am all about cutting red tape and creating efficiencies wherever we possibly can. If you had to advise this Committee on the top three changes that we could make to make home building more efficient and effective in this country, what would you prioritize? Mr. HUGHES. First of all, I keep going back to codes, that there is no question the increase in energy codes or IECC, energy and conservation codes, that was the sharpest increase that we have experienced in years. So we would like to roll that back, most of all. Ms. GOODLANDER. Has the threat of a trade war with Canada had an impact on home builders in this country? I want to submit, Mr. Chairman, for the record an article from the Boston Globe this month entitled, ``Tariffs could drive up New Hampshire housing costs even more, developers warn.'' Your organization is quoted here. Home builders in my State have sounded the alarm on the costs that this trade war is going to exact on home building and on homebuyers. So can you please speak to that? Mr. HUGHES. Sure. Like I have mentioned earlier, we have dealt with tariffs for years. And it is going to be another 25 percent. It is going to be terrible, to say the least. But we have had to deal with it for decades because---- Ms. GOODLANDER. What would you say is the closest precedent that we should look to? Because, as I understand it, we have never seen the threat of this kind of trade war with Canada before. So when you say we have dealt with this before, what should we be looking to? Mr. HUGHES. We have just dealt with tariffs on Canadian lumber because--and this goes back into the 1990s with the first softwood lumber agreement. And it was all over dumping of products from Canada that harmed domestic lumber mills. And so we have been paying those tariffs forever. Now, to get into the particulars or the weeds about what is fair and what is not fair between the two countries, I am not that expert. But like I say, it is--yeah, we are very concerned about additional tariffs, but we have been dealing with it for a long time. Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you. The people of New Hampshire share your concern. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. Gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Mr. McGarvey from the great State of Kentucky for 5 minutes. Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate everybody being here today. Look, I am going to read the headline from The Wall Street Journal in a story written last night on its website. It just says simply, ``U.S. stocks post worst quarter since 2022 on threat of trade war.'' In Q1 of 2025, the S&P 500 dropped 5.1 percent and the NASDAQ fell 10.3 percent and the DOW sunk 2.3 percent. On Sunday of this week, Goldman Sachs predicted that higher tariffs, weak economic growth, and greater than expected inflation would depress the S&P another 5 percent and just might cause a recession. In fact, they gave that a one-in-three chance. It is not just Wall Street feeling this. I think what we know in this Committee, that main street feels this too. Data released last week from the University of Michigan's Consumer Sentiment Index shows main street feels it and that Americans are more worried about their economic well-being than at any time since the pandemic. Concerns about the job market are greater than they have been at any point since 2009. I know this. I spoke to a home builder in Kentucky over the weekend who said they are raising their prices, and he feels a recession is coming. This is not a golden age that is being ushered in. And people's anxiety right now doesn't just come from regulations. Go to any small business in any district in America, and I promise you, they are going to find regulations and tell you about regulations they don't like and don't make sense. But I think what they will also tell you is they want certainty. And so what you are seeing right now out of the White House is the opposite of certainty. You are seeing a reckless and revelrous approach to governing, and it is not just putting uncertainty in the regulatory environment; it is putting in every single part of our economy. Of course it is. Every week right now we are seeing people who work for the President go on TV and say they have no idea whether he is going to follow through on his threats to annex Greenland, impose a 200 percent tax on Guinness, or get rid of FEMA. If his closest people don't know what he is doing, how do we expect the small business owners in our district to know what is going to happen? So, Mr. Arensmeyer, a question for you. What do you think is toughest for small businesses to operate under, smart, well- crafted policies that agencies take years to write and implement or the Trump administration's whiplash economic policies that are making everything more expensive, destroying supply chains, and cutting off critical export markets? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Well, we have never seen anything in the 20 years I have been running the Small Business Majority, we have never seen anything like this in such a short period of time. Our own--we just got these numbers yesterday, didn't make it into my written testimony. The confidence levels are just plummeting in the regular surveying we do of our network. So compared to a smart regulatory system, there is no choice. I mean, this is really--I have never had a small business--and, yes, there are regulations, a lot of them are State and local. And we are very active in pushing back on regulations at the local level or State licensing regulations that are too onerous to keep small entrepreneurs out. But overall, regulations have never been that important in terms of the lists of stuff. And right now, believe me, we are not hearing a word about regulations from anyone out there. We are hearing about tariffs, we are hearing about mass deportations, we are hearing about slashing of programs, and that is where it is at right now. Mr. MCGARVEY. Yeah. And this brings me no joy to bring this report. And at the end of the day, I root for America. I want our economy to be doing well. I want our trade policies to be doing well. I want our small businesses to be doing well and people's 401(k)s to be doing well. They are not right now under the uncertainty that is being caused by this administration. I know this. Companies in my district are already hurting from this trade war. Just quickly about the trade, tariffs aren't good or bad. Tariffs are a tool. A hammer is a tool. It is a good tool for putting a nail in a wall. It is not so great to use it to fix your iPad. How you use these things matters. And these indiscriminate trade wars right now we are feeling the impact of in my district, the bourbon industry in particular. Under a 25 percent retaliatory tariff from Trump's first term as President, their exports were cut in half. Now they are talking about a 50 percent tariff that is set to go into effect tomorrow. And he is raising all of our prices and hurting the economy. And for what? For what? A tax package that isn't going to help main street. It is going to help the richest executives and companies on Wall Street. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Jack from the great State of Georgia for 5 minutes. Mr. JACK. Well, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate you saving the best for last. I am very grateful for this hearing. And if I could, Mr. Hughes, I would love to start my line of questioning with you. First and foremost, want to thank your association for its leadership in trying to generate affordable homes and to make housing more affordable for my constituents and, really, all Georgians. But specifically, I really welcome your testimony. And I am curious, how would you say burdensome regulations limit your ability to meet the growing demand for single-family homes, and what policy changes would most effectively encourage additional private investment in this sector? Mr. HUGHES. Well, just the cost and affordability of homes is the biggest hurdle that we all have to deal with. And higher interest rates right now. Of course, we expect those to fluctuate. But just the overburdensome of--and I hate to keep going back to codes, but that is the thing that has affected us the most in the short period of time. Mr. JACK. Helpful context. And in your testimony, you spoke to something that means a lot to me, and that is the Congressional Review Act. You talked about specifically National Association of Home Builder's support for H.J. Res. 20, which I will talk about in a moment. But would welcome thoughts and really open it to the panel on how Congress can better use the Congressional Review Act to make housing more affordable. Mr. HUGHES. I am not that expert. So if you have someone else, that would be great. Mr. JACK. Sure. Anybody else want to take that question? Well, I will speak to--in your testimony you outlined support for H.J. Res. 20. And just to walk the witnesses through, we repealed a regulation that would have effectively outlawed a very specific type of tankless water heater. Rinnai America Corporation is a company within my congressional district that is headquartered in my hometown of Peachtree City. And it about 4 years ago opened a state-of-the- art facility in Griffin, Georgia, that manufactures what is called a gas-fired instantaneous water heater, noncondensing tankless water heater, but regardless, a tankless water heater. And the Biden administration issued a rule in late December, on December 26, the day after Christmas, that would have effectively outlawed production of this type of water heater, thus endangering about 500 jobs within my congressional district. And I am proud to report that the House took action on this in late February. Eleven Democrats voted along with House Republicans to overturn this rule. But to me it is an effective usage of the Congressional Review Act, and I welcomed that from your testimony. If I can ask just the panel writ large, and we will start just going down the line--since we only have 2 minutes left-- but if there was one regulation that you think that Congress could address that would help your industry, we would welcome your thoughts as we go down. Mr. MONTALBAN. Thank you, Congressman Jack. Made it very clear today that those are the methane emission rules and regulations against the small independents. And want to tell you that the small independents of America are excited, we are happy, we are looking forward to develop the natural resources of this great country. Mr. JACK. Thank you. Sir? Mr. JOHNSON. I guess 20 percent small business tax deduction is probably the most important one to me right at this moment. Mr. JACK. Wonderful. Thank you. Mr. Hughes? Mr. HUGHES. I am sorry. I thought I had already commented. And the question again? Mr. JACK. I was just saying if there is--just in closing-- if there is one regulation you would love to see us work to relieve that burden for you, what would it be? Mr. HUGHES. Well, I hate to keep going back to the burdensome codes that have hit us all at once. But to be honest, I would like to see, like Mr. Johnson, I would like to see the cost of fuel come down. Took a picture the day Mr. Biden went into office, fuel in my area was $1.87 a gallon. That has had a huge impact to our industry, whether it is gas or diesel fuel. Mr. JACK. Wonderful. And, Mr. Arensmeyer? Mr. ARENSMEYER. Well, we heard a lot about the cost of housing, so I am sure there are some regulations out there related to housing that could be looked at, absolutely. I am not an expert like Mr. Hughes on that, but I am sure there are, and I think that is a big issue. The one thing I want to mention, Mr. Johnson mentioned the TCJA, the 199A, and also one of your colleagues mentioned it. I want to be clear, we support 199A, we support reforming it and making it where the benefit is benefiting those at the bottom. Right now 73 percent of the benefit goes to the top 4 percent of pass-through entities. We don't want to eliminate it. We want to reform it. I want to be very clear about that. Mr. JACK. Well, thank you all very much for testifying. I think the whole Committee appreciates your thoughtful comments today. And I yield back to our distinguished Chairman, Mr. Williams. Chairman WILLIAMS. Gentleman yields back. And I would like to thank our witnesses for your testimony today and for your being with us. Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to submit additional materials and written questions for the witnesses to the Chair, which will be forwarded to the witnesses. And I want to ask the witnesses to please respond promptly if that happens. No further business, without objection, this Committee is adjourned. [Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.] A P P E N D I X GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT