[House Hearing, 119 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] FROM SERVICE TO STARTUP: EMPOWERING VETERAN ENTREPRENEURS ======================================================================= HEARING before the COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ HEARING HELD DECEMBER 10, 2025 __________ [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Small Business Committee Document Number 119-025 Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov ______ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 62-205 WASHINGTON : 2026 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman PETE STAUBER, Minnesota DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas JAKE ELLZEY, Texas MARK ALFORD, Missouri NICK LALOTA, New York BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota TONY WIED, Wisconsin ROB BRESNAHAN, Pennsylvania BRIAN JACK, Georgia TROY DOWNING, Montana KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern Marina Islands DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas JIMMY PATRONIS, Florida NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan LAMONICA MCIVER, New Jersey GIL CISNEROS, California KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota GEORGE LATIMER, New York DEREK TRAN, California LATEEFAH SIMON, California JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey MAGGIE GOODLANDER, New Hampshire Lauren Holmes, Majority Staff Director Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director C O N T E N T S OPENING STATEMENTS Page Hon. Roger Williams.............................................. 1 Hon. Nydia Velazquez............................................. 2 WITNESSES Mr. Kevin M. Schmiegel, Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer, ZeroMils, Alexandria, VA....................................... 5 Ms. Misty Fox, Director, Entrepreneurship and Small Business, D'Aniello Institute for Veterans and Military Families, Syracuse, NY................................................... 7 Mr. Christopher Lefebvre, President and Chief Executive Officer, ISI Professional Services, Sterling, VA........................ 9 Ms. Rebecca Aguilera-Gardiner, Chief Executive Officer, The Veterans In Business (VIB) Network, San Diego, CA.............. 11 APPENDIX Prepared Statements: Mr. Kevin M. Schmiegel, Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer, ZeroMils, Alexandria, VA.......................... 43 Ms. Misty Fox, Director, Entrepreneurship and Small Business, D'Aniello Institute for Veterans and Military Families, Syracuse, NY............................................... 47 Mr. Christopher Lefebvre, President and Chief Executive Officer, ISI Professional Services, Sterling, VA........... 57 Ms. Rebecca Aguilera-Gardiner, Chief Executive Officer, The Veterans In Business (VIB) Network, San Diego, CA.......... 73 Questions for the Record: None. Answers for the Record: None. Additional Material for the Record: Defense Credit Union Council (DCUC) Letter................... 79 American Legion (AL) Letter.................................. 82 FROM SERVICE TO STARTUP: EMPOWERING VETERAN ENTREPRENEURS ---------- WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 10, 2025 House of Representatives, Committee on Small Business, Washington, DC. The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:08 a.m., in Room 2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams [chairman of the Committee] presiding. Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Van Duyne, Alford, LaLota, Finstad, Wied, Bresnahan, Jack, Downing, King-Hinds, Schmidt, Patronis, Velazquez, Scholten, McIver, Cisneros, Morrison, Latimer, Tran, Simon, Olszewski, Conaway, and Goodlander. Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, I want to recognize Mr. Patronis for a prayer. Mr. PATRONIS. Please bow your heads. Dear God, we gather here today. We have to do the people's work. We need your wisdom. We need your guidance. We need your strength. The decisions that we are looking at making are going to affect millions of people. They aren't easy. I hope that we do this right by the folks we serve but also right by you. Please look out for our families, as we appreciate their sacrifices, as we are doing the work of the people, and let us make sure that we always realize what is important for those that we get to serve and never lose sight of that. Amen. Please face the flag. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Chairman WILLIAMS. A matter of personal privilege, real quick, I want to remind everybody we have our Christmas party reception tomorrow 4 o'clock to 6 o'clock. Everybody has got something going, but you need to be here because we are going to have a drawing. We are going to draw for new car. Okay. Everybody signed up for that. Right here. Good morning, everyone. I appreciate everybody being here. I want to now call the Committee on Small Business to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess of the Committee at any time. I now recognize for myself for my opening statement. I want to welcome, again, to today's hearing, ``From Service to Startup; Empowering Veteran Entrepreneurs.'' I want to thank our witnesses for joining us today. And, to our veteran witnesses and Committee Members, thank you for your service. In the United States, we believe in taking care of veterans and their families with real opportunities that honor their service. Today there is about 1.6 million veteran-owned small businesses across the nation, which represent 5.3 percent of all U.S. businesses. They generate more than $900 billion in revenue and employ 3.2 million Americans. Our servicemembers have been willing to sacrifice their time, opportunities, and even their very lives for our nation. Yet, when they return to civilian life, many feel they are playing catchup. While veterans were serving their country, their peers were going to school, gaining skills in apprenticeships, and expanding their professional experience. And, when returning from their life of service, veterans must navigate transferring their military skills to the workplace. And, unlike their civilian peers, veterans often lack the credit history to access capital they need to start a small business. And, when they leave the military, they lose the built-in support network and mission that shaped their daily lives, forcing them to rebuild community and connections from the ground up. Simply put, when returning to civilian life, veterans are searching for their new mission. Veterans and their families are some of the most capable, resilient, and driven people in this country. They are innovators, entrepreneurs and leaders, and with the right tools and opportunities, they can overcome their obstacle or setback. Over the years, a variety of programs have been established to support our veterans. The Department of Defense's Transition Assistance Program, or TAP, and the SBA's Boots to Business program play a crucial role, an important role in that mission. And Boots to Business, while helping returned servicemembers find their next mission, is entrepreneurs by teaching how to get started and grow a business. I am proud that this Committee led the way in the fiscal year 2025 NDAA to make Boots to Business a permanent resource for our veterans. And, like you will hear from our witnesses today, veteran leaders in the private sector continue to step up in ways government simply can't, offering peer mentorship, business guidance, and connections that make all the difference in the world. Their contributions demonstrate that veteran entrepreneurs thrive when they have success and access to structured training, strong peer networks, and pathways to capital. As a Committee, we have an important role in identifying gaps, demanding accountability, and ensuring federal programs deliver results for veteran entrepreneurs. By reinforcing this partnership between the federal government, the veteran community, and the private sector, we can continue innovating barriers and opening doors for every veteran entrepreneur seeking their next mission. So I want to thank all of you again. I want to thank you for joining us today. I want to thank you for what you have done for our country. I look forward to the conversation ahead. I now recognize my friend, the distinguished Ranking Member for this Committee, Ms. Velazquez from New York. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the committee convening this important hearing today on how we can better assist and empower the veteran business community. The committee has a long bipartisan tradition supporting veteran entrepreneurs as they start, build, and grow their businesses. I am working to create an environment that provides the opportunity for success. Last year, this Committee worked in a bipartisan fashion with our colleagues on the Armed Services Committee to codify the Boots to Business Program in the National Defense Authorization Act. Boots to Business is offered as part of the DOD's Transition Assistance Program to provide targeted information on training to help servicemembers turn an idea into a business plan. Boots to Business is an important and effective program: 22,000 veteran servicemembers and military spouses participated in fiscal year 2024. Unfortunately, many other programs and services that SBA provides are less secure, and veteran-owned firms are not exempt from the difficult environment created by this administration's policies, including, and especially, tariffs. In their first budget request, this administration attempted to eliminate funding for the SBA Veteran Business Outreach Centers. VBOCs are critical resources that provide entrepreneur development assistance to veteran-owned small businesses across the country. When I talk to veteran-owned small businesses and their advocates, I hear many of the same concerns as other small businesses, that access to capital and the ability to secure the amount of capital they need can be a challenge, as well as reaching new customers, hiring the right employees, and contracting with the federal government. We know that among veteran-owned firms there are underserved communities in particular, female veterans and veterans returning to rural communities. There are unique issues for veteran entrepreneurs, including accessing local resources after moving around the country and the world for so many years. VBOCs and other specific programs have targeted expertise and resources that can assist these firms in reaching their full potential. We must continue to ensure they have the necessary funding and support to provide assistance. I look forward to hearing from the panel about what is working for veteran-owned small businesses and what gaps we can fill to ensure that the right services are available and accessible when needed. I want to take this opportunity to welcome all of you, and to thank you for being here this morning. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. And I will now introduce our witnesses. Our first witness here with us today is Mr. Kevin Schmiegel. Did I say it right? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yes, sir. Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. Mitch Schmiegel is the co-founder and chief executive officer of ZeroMils in Alexandria, Virginia. Mr. Schmiegel spent 20 years in the Marine Corps holding senior operational leadership roles and training Marines for combat deployments, managing large-scale personal assignments, and supporting top military leaders in high-stakes environments. After returning from the Active Service, he founded Hiring Our Heroes at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, where he created a nationwide model to connect veterans and military spouses with meaningful employment. He later served as chief executive officer of Operation Gratitude, expanding the organization's mission to support servicemembers, veterans, and first-responders across the country. Mr. Schmiegel holds a bachelor of arts in English literature. And I am asking you how you say it. So make sure I say it right. Okay. From College of Holy Cross, and a master's of science in management from the Naval Postgraduate School. I want to thank you for being here and thank you for your service. Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Thank you, Chairman Williams. Chairman WILLIAMS. Let me move--okay. You are fine. Let me finish this, and we will come back. Okay. Our next witness here with us today is Misty Fox. Ms. Fox is Director of Entrepreneurship and Small Business at Syracuse University, D'Aniello Institute for Veterans and Military Families in Syracuse, New York. Ms. Fox has spent nearly a decade building one of the nation's strongest ecosystems for veteran entrepreneurs, coordinating collaboration between Fortune 500 companies and more than 34,000 veteran-owned businesses. Prior to joining the Institute, Ms. Fox served as manager of Oklahoma State University's Riata Center for Entrepreneurship, where she established a multi-university consortium, secured grant funding, and developed accelerator programs. Ms. Fox holds a master of business administration and a bachelor of science in business management and marketing from Oklahoma State University and is an alumni of President George H. W. Bush Stand-To Veteran Leadership Program. We are looking forward to your testimony, and thank you for everything you have done. Our next witness is Mr. Christopher Lefebvre. Mr. Lefebvre is the president and chief executive officer of ISI Professional Services in Sterling, Virginia. Mr. Lefebvre manages a team of more than 50 professionals who support federal agencies across program and project management, professional, and administrative services, logistics, and facility support, and real estate consultation. As part of his work at ISI, Mr. Lefebvre served in the United States Marine Corps. His distinguished military service includes numerous declarations, among them the Joint Service Commendation Medal, the Navy Commendation Medal with Bronze Star, the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal, and campaign medals for service in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the global war on Terrorism. Mr. Lefebvre earned his master of business administration from the Robert H. School of Business at the University of Maryland and his bachelor of arts in government from Campbell University. I want to thank all of you for being here. I now recognize the Ranking Member from the great State of New York, Ms. Velazquez, to briefly introduce our last witness appearing before us today. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is my pleasure to introduce our witness, Ms. Rebecca Aguilera-Gardiner--like Christina Aguilera, the singer. Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner is the CEO of the Veterans In Business Network. She brought more than 30 years of expertise from her family's second-generation SDVOSB printing business to the VIB Network. The network leads networking, matchmaking, and outreach initiatives designed to expand opportunities and strengthen engagement between veteran-owned businesses, corporations, and government agencies. The VIB Network has received numerous awards, including the 2021 Calvert Award for Business Excellence and the 2019 Best in Class Trailblazer Award. Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner has been honored for her work championing veteran entrepreneurs with the Veteran's Business Enterprise Champion of the Year Award, the Leadership Award, and the Women of Excellence Awards, an appointment to serve on the SBA Advisory Committee on Veterans Business Affairs. Thank you for being here. Welcome. Chairman WILLIAMS. The lady yields back. I now, again, want to say thanks to all of you. And, before I recognize the witnesses, I would like to remind them that their whole testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in length. If you see the light turn red in front of you, it means your 5 minutes has concluded, and you should wrap up your testimony. And you will hear this if you keep going. The louder this gets, it says you need to shut it down. Okay. And it will go fine. And, also, I want to say, you will see Members moving in and out. There are a lot of hearings going on today. And so, if one of them leaves while you are speaking, it has nothing to do with what you said or anything; it is just we will be moving around. So thank you for understanding that. So I now recognize Mr. Schmiegel for his 5 minutes for opening remarks. STATEMENTS OF KEVIN SCHMIEGEL, CO-FOUNDER AND CEO, ZEROMILS; MISTY FOX, DIRECTOR, ENTREPRENEURSHIP AND SMALL BUSINESS, D'ANIELLO INSTITUTE FOR VETERANS AND MILITARY FAMILIES; CHRISTOPHER LEFEBVRE, PRESIDENT AND CEO, ISI PROFESSIONAL SERVICES; AND REBECCA AGUILERA-GARDINER, CEO, THE VETERANS IN BUSINESS NETWORK. STATEMENT OF KEVIN SCHMIEGEL Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Thank you, Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, and distinguished Members of the Committee. My name is Kevin Schmiegel, and I am the co-founder and CEO of a service-disabled veteran small business called ZeroMils. As a Marine veteran and entrepreneur, I am honored to represent the 1.6 million veteran small businesses owners in America. My transition from the military was seamless, not because of the Transition Assistance Program but through relationships built over 20 years in uniform. General Jim Jones, who I served with at NATO and in the Middle East, became my mentor and biggest advocate in transition. He introduced me to the president and CEO of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Tom Donohue, who gave me my first civilian job. Tom became my mentor, too. He taught me how to be a CEO, and he empowered me to start my own entrepreneur journey in 2011 as the founder of Hiring Our Heroes at the U.S. Chamber's Foundation. HOH was just the beginning. After leaving the Chamber, I went on to lead two other national nonprofits. Over a decade, those three organizations impacted 4 million servicemembers, veterans, first-responders, and their families. All told, we raised $100 million in private sector investment. In March of 2022, my journey as an entrepreneur took a different path when I cofounded ZeroMils with a leader I have known for 30 years, retired Marine Colonel Paul Cucinotta. Paul and I started ZeroMils in response to growing trends in the public and private sectors that shaped a broken veteran narrative, one that has negatively impacted propensity to serve among American youth. Our mission at ZeroMils is to create military-thriving cultures and communities, not military- friendly. And veteran-owned small businesses are at the very heart of this movement because we fundamentally believe we must play a larger role in impacting our country, our economy, and our communities. According to the most recent SBA report, there are 1.6 million veteran small businesses in America that generate nearly $1 trillion in revenue, employing 3.2 million people with a payroll of $179 billion. While these data tell a good news story, they represent an increasingly alarming trend: For the first time since the end of World War II, veterans are less likely to own a small business than civilians. 50 percent of World War II veterans went on to start or operate a business after returning home, defining a period of time that was not only an entrepreneurial boom for veterans, it marked an economic boom for the United States. This was the direct result of the GI bill providing low-interest business loans, along with educational and vocational training that helped veterans gain access to capital and the necessary skills to launch and grow their businesses. In stark contrast, less than 5 percent of post-9/11 veterans have started a business, and the total number of VOSBs has declined dramatically from 11 percent of all businesses in 2014 to an all-time low today. There are several factors causing this decline. First, the post-9/11 GI bill is structured to support education and training with no equivalent benefit for low-interest business loans, making it more challenging than ever for newer veterans to access capital. Second, there is a fundamental difference in the advice, support and services provided in transition. TAP is about entitlement, not empowerment. And finally, veteran small business owners don't have a seat at the table. We don't have a seat at the table at TAP. We don't have a seat at the table addressing systemic challenges that veterans face, even when we are best positioned to address them. And we don't have a seat at the table in forming legislation and policy decisions that impact our community. So, in the absence of these opportunities, my company, ZeroMils, is creating our own table for veteran small businesses. In 2026, with our military-thriving action coalition partners, we are hosting national and major events. We are modeling actionable community playbooks, and we are creating a military-thriving small business toolkit with the goal of reaching thousands of aspiring and current veteran entrepreneurs, helping them grow and thrive. To close, I have three suggested next steps for this Committee: One, explore ways to improve access to capital for veterans who want to start a business or franchise, including but not limited to the GI bill; two, encourage other Committees that impact veteran transition and quality of life to give veteran small businesses a seat at round tables and a voice in hearings; and, three, increase access for VOSBs on military installations, at TAP, at hiring fairs, and at career-level schools. Together these recommendations will educate and empower servicemembers and veteran entrepreneurs to make better, more informed decisions about the opportunities available to them. They will increase the number of post-9/11 veteran business owners, and they will enable current ones to play a larger role in making our country, our economy and our communities stronger. Thank you, again, for this opportunity to speak today and for giving veteran small businesses like ours a voice and a seat at the table. I look forward to your questions and continuing to serve this Committee in any way possible in the future. Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much. I now recognize Ms. Fox for her 5 minutes of opening remarks. STATEMENT OF MISTY FOX Ms. FOX. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, and Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity today to testify alongside my colleagues and friends here. I appreciate your leadership for empowering veterans to continue their life of service through entrepreneurship and, of course, your ongoing support for Boots to Business. My name is Misty Stutsman Fox, and I am the Director of Entrepreneurship and Small Business at the D'Aniello Institute for Veterans and Military Families at Syracuse University. Each year, we support tens of thousands of transitioning servicemembers, veterans, and military spouses as they build businesses, careers, and economic mobility. Veteran entrepreneurship isn't just an outcome; it is an identity. For many veterans, entrepreneurship is more than a career choice. It is a continuation of service. It provides renewed purpose, self-direction, and the ability to keep contributing after they transition to civilian life. Veterans are proven entrepreneurs. Historically they have been more likely than their civilian peers to start businesses, and when they do, they outperform. Veteran-owned businesses generate $1.3 trillion in annual receipts, employ more than 4.4 million Americans, and pay over $233 billion in payroll. Here is the bottom line: Veterans outperform their civilian counterparts when barriers are removed. Veteran-owned businesses are less likely to close. They have an 8.2 percent lower risk of failure, and nearly 98 percent of veterans credit their military developed skills, planning, leadership, and pressure-tested decision-making for helping them overcome business obstacle. Military service trains you to make critical decisions with incomplete information. That is exactly what entrepreneurs do every single day. Barriers are not about talent. They are about access. But, despite their strengths, veterans face barriers they shouldn't have to navigate alone. First, a fragmented support landscape. Veteran entrepreneurs often describe the ecosystem as a maze and not a map. Without coordination across federal agencies, VSOs, State programs and nonprofits, too many veterans are left to guess which door to enter. Second, rural challenges: 39 percent of veteran entrepreneurs serve in rural economies where the entrepreneur may be the employer, the mentor, the community anchor, but broadband gaps, fewer peer connections, and limited technical assistance stack the deck against growth. Third, access to market opportunities. Here is what keeps me up at night, veterans are ready to compete. They just need clear pathways and access to capital. But the bigger question is, are we creating policies that open doors or close them? Two-thirds of veterans use personal or family savings as their primary access to capital at the foundational phase--not loans, not SBA programs. 88 percent of those veterans find the procurement landscape difficult to navigate. Veterans know how to serve. What they need is a fair shot and not a shortcut. To meet this moment, I ask Congress to consider four solutions that unlock economic potential, rather than create new programs for programs' sake. First, strengthen SBA's Office of Veteran Business Development by fully funding VBOCs and public-private partnership grants. Boots to Business alone cannot meet veteran entrepreneur's needs. Second, strengthen capital readiness and access, coaching, credit repair and veteran-specific underwriting. Third, ensure policies expand opportunities rather than limit it. We need thoughtful policy that enables veteran-owned businesses to compete fairly in the procurement landscape, streamline compliance, expanded rule infrastructure, transparent requirements, and meaningful feedback loops that build capacity rather than create barriers. And, fourth, fund data collection that measures real outcomes from the SBA programs and resource partners, not just dependents. Veterans don't need guaranteed success. They need guaranteed access. At IVMF, we operate over 11 training programs and navigation services that have supported nearly 100,000 veteran entrepreneurs. We have helped with 35,000 entrepreneurs get to the navigation that they need. We know that programs like CEOcircle, EDGE, Entrepreneurship Bootcamp for Veterans illustrate what is possible when government, banks, corporations act as partners and not parallel efforts. We know that public-private partnerships work. Take Michael Bower, a Marine Corps veteran, through our program Michael connected with SCORE, SBDC, as well as CPAs to acquire Eagle Metalcraft, a sheet metal manufacturing company. He doubled sales and workforce in 3 years, and he was named the 2023 SBA veteran small business of the year. He said, ``This help is really what changed our ability to add jobs.'' That is return on investment, measurable, and jobs created, businesses scaled, and community strengthened. Veteran entrepreneurs are not asking for special treatment. They are asking for systems that recognize their potential and remove avoidable barriers. They defended the American Dream; they deserve a fair chance to build it. I thank the Committee and look forward to your questions. Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much. And I now recognize Mr. Lefebvre for his 5 minutes of opening remarks. STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER LEFEBVRE Mr. LEFEBVRE. Good morning, Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, and esteemed Members of this Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. It is an honor to join you for a discussion that is not only vital to the economic strength of our country but to the future of the men and women who have served it. My name is Chris Lefebvre. I am a Marine Corps veteran and president and CEO of ISI Professional Services, a service- disabled veteran-owned small business. I appear before you today as a practitioner, someone who has lived the transition from military service and now employers and mentors veterans navigating similar paths. When I left the Marine Corps, I didn't plan to start a business. I didn't even know that that was an option. I joined ISI as an employee seeking stability and to make an impact. Less than 3 years later, I became president and CEO, and I quickly learned that, while the military prepared me to lead people, I didn't understand the fundamentals of running a business. I didn't know what I didn't know. What I encountered, and what so many veterans encounter, was not a lack of capability but a lack of clarity around the requirements that I stepped into and the resources available to me. Like me, veterans struggle because they enter an entrepreneurial ecosystem that is difficult to see. It is hard to navigate, and it is very easy to fall out of. And that is the central point of my testimony. This is a system design problem, not a talent problem. Veterans bringing the qualities that every successful entrepreneur needs, but they face an ecosystem built in pieces. Strong programs, but not a pathway. Resources, but not direction. Opportunities, but not continuity. From my experience, and from the data, four failures stand out. First is navigation. Awareness of resources can deeply depend on geography and structure, or, often, luck. Veterans often stumble into programs rather than being led or guided into them. Second, continuity. Even when veterans enter high-quality programs like Boots to Business or Focused Accelerators, the programs are not connected. There is no one handoff, no shared roadmap, no follow throughs, and momentum stalls. Third, capital access. Traditional underwriting models do not reflect the realities of service. Frequent moves, deployment, shorter credit histories, these are structural mismatches, not risk factors. Fourth, procurement volatility. Veteran-owned firms rely on a stable federal marketplace. When policies shift through reliance on category management, or consolidations that unintentionally limit participation, uncertainty rises, investment slows, and it becomes harder for veteran-led firms to complete and grow. These failures come at a cost. And, while 1.6 million veteran-owned businesses contribute significantly to the economic, millions more veterans have the capacity to build and grow companies if the system just better enabled them to move from interest to action. The good news is that targeted practical reforms can close these gaps. In my written testimony, I outline six recommendations that solve the fundamental problem-- fragmentation--by building the unified continuum that veterans need. First, establish a national navigation hub, a single front door, digital and human, that triages veterans to the right programs at the right times. Second, standardized warm handoff between programs. This turns isolated touch points into a connected pathway, from ideation to launch, from growth to exit. Third, modernize entrepreneurship exposure within TAP. Entrepreneurship education through Boots to Business during TAP is a game changer, but it should be mandatory, not elective. Consistent high-quality exposure ensures that every servicemember understands that entrepreneurship is a viable post-service option. Fourth, modernize capital access. Implement the capital provisions in the Veteran Entrepreneurship Empowerment Act, expand early stage flexibility, and pilot structured uses of the GI bill for entrepreneurship training. Fifth, stabilize procurement conditions for veteran-owned firms. Small businesses struggle to make multiyear investments when goals fluctuate, rules shift, or opportunities consolidate beyond their reach. And, six, improve transparency across nonprofit and VSOs. Veterans deserve clarity about which programs produce outcomes, and which do not. Individually these recommendations address the major pain points that veterans face. Collectively, though, they build the continuum that the current system lacks. We as veterans do not need guarantees. We need a system that matches our capability: clear, coherent and built from momentum. If we modernize that system, they will continue to do what they have always done: lead with purpose, build with integrity, and strengthen the economic and strategic fabric of our nation. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, Members of the Committee, thank you for your commitment to those who served. I appreciate the opportunity to testify today, and I am happy to answer any questions you have. Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much. I now recognize Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner for her 5 minutes of opening remarks. STATEMENT OF REBECCA AGUILERA-GARDINER Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Thank you. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member Velazquez, and distinguish Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. My name is Rebecca Aguilera-Gardiner, and I am the CEO of Veterans in Business, or VIB, Network. We are a crucial nonprofit organization specifically dedicated to advocating for, educating, and connecting veteran-owned small businesses and service-disabled veteran-owned businesses with real opportunities in the corporate and government marketplace. The VIB Network represents diverse coalition of veterans who have traded their uniforms for business suits, applying the discipline, resilience, and leadership learned in the military to the American marketplace. We execute our mission through impactful programs like our B.R.A.V.O. Corporate Mentor/Veteran Business Protege Program, which provides intensive mentoring and coaching at no cost to the veterans. There are nearly 1.6 million veteran-owned businesses in the United States. These firms employ over 5 million Americans and generate approximately $1 trillion in annual receipts. When a veteran succeeds in business, they hire other veterans, reinvest in their local communities, and strengthen the national supply chain. We started the VIB Network because corporations were saying it was difficult to find veterans for projects, and the VA search engine was challenging to navigate. However, the path to success is fraught with obstacles. Data from our 2023 veteran business survey indicates that the majority of veteran-owned businesses are small, nearly 90 percent, with over 60 percent reporting annual revenues below $500,000. I would like to highlight three critical areas where this Committee's support is essential for veteran business success. First, the federal government has a statutory goal of awarding 5 percent of all prime contract dollars to SDVOSBs. Yet the practice of category management, bundling small contracts into massive vehicles to save money, disproportionately harms veteran small businesses. This consolidation regulates capable veteran firms to permanent subcontractor status stripping them of past-performance rating necessary for growth. Furthermore, large prime contractors are often awarded billion dollar contracts with a stipulation that they utilize small veteran businesses. Currently, there is insufficient oversight and penalties when a prime fails to meet their veteran utilization goals. We need teeth in these regulations. We also strongly support updating the sole source threshold across SBA programs, including SDVOSBs, VOSBs, HUBZone and 8(a), to align permanent tools with current realities and expand access for small businesses. Further, VIB supports H.R. 2804, the Protecting of Small Business Competition Act of 2025, which will help VOSBs remain competitive. Second, in the federal government, veterans have a setaside status. However, in corporate America, veteran-owned businesses are often not recognized as a diverse category in the same vein as minority or women-owned. Veterans are a diverse group by nature representing every race, gender, and background in America. We urge this Committee to encourage the private sector to standardize inclusion of VOSBs and SDVOSBs in their supply diversity goals. When major corporations open supply chains to veterans, it reduces reliance on government contracts and creates a more sustainable business ecosystem. Finally, you cannot start a business or scale a business without capital. Unfortunately, veterans have struggled to access traditional financing. Many transition out the service with gaps in their credit history due to deployment or lack of tangible collateral required by traditional banks. While SBA loan programs are vital, the fees and strict underwriting criteria often leave smaller veteran startups behind. Veterans have already signed a blank check to their country payable with their lives. When they return home and choose to start a business, they are asking for nothing more than an equal opportunity to compete. By removing bureaucratic barriers and ensuring fair access to capital and contracts, we do not just help veterans; we fuel the American economy. Thank you for your time, and for your continued commitment to the veteran business community. Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. And we will now move to the Member questions under the 5- minute rule. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes. Mr. Schmiegel, as a veteran who has dedicated his civilian life to serving fellow veterans, you have first-hand experience in navigating the benefits and the resources. So my question is, how difficult is it to navigate the business resources available to veterans, and how can technology make it easier? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Chairman Williams, I have to say that when I first started my entrepreneurial business, ZeroMils, we had to do it on our own. So it was difficult to navigate. And I think the points being made about that navigation and consolidating it under larger nonprofits, larger VSOs is exactly the wrong direction to take. Figuring out how to run or how to start and run a business is part of the process. I think that the solution should lie with the private sector. I think it should be private-sector led, and I think the type of automation that we are working on through a military-thriving small business toolkit will be with companies that want small business owners to thrive, to make it seamless, to make a dashboard that they can use at the start of their business, and to carry them through so they not only have to start it, but they can grow and continue to grow. Chairman WILLIAMS. Ms. Fox, your institution plays a vital role in helping veterans find their next mission as small business owners through programs like CEOcircle and Boots to Business, which you mentioned. And, last year, this Committee worked to make Boots to Business a course that gives a servicemember an introduction to entrepreneurship permanent. So the question would be, how important is the timing of taking the Boots to Business course before transitioning to civilian life? Ms. FOX. Thank you for that question, Chairman. It is extremely important. Quite frankly, Boots to Business is the language of entrepreneurship, and the fact that it is hosted both here and OCONUS is something that is extremely important as geography should never ration your opportunity. And I think the great thing about Boots to Business is that you have the ability to learn the 101 of entrepreneurship. We should expand it. It works. It works, but it needs to work for more people. We need to have it be more available online. We need to have it be more available with touch points even after transition because we know that veterans are starting businesses 11 years after transition. So to make sure that they can continue to check in and understand the resources that are there for them when they are ready is paramount. If we solve for transition, we will solve for small business. Thank you. Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. And, Mr. Lefebvre, as a veteran, you both employ and mentor other veterans navigating similar circumstances and pathways. And can you share your approach to fostering veteran entrepreneurship and what others can learn from it. Mr. LEFEBVRE. Absolutely. Thank you, Chairman. My approach is multifold. The reality of what my testimony talked about is the continuum throughout this process. There is ideation. There is startup. There is growth. There is exit, and what any individual veteran, or any entrepreneur for that matter, needs at any given moment is fundamentally different. And so, whether it is mentoring employees of my current firm that are entrepreneurial in nature and how I can leverage SBA programs, like the Mentor Protege Program, and entering into joint ventures to help with real mentorship and support is fundamentally different than my advocacy and support that I give institutions like IVMF through EBV and other accelerators that can help, especially those veterans that are on the front end of that journey from ideation into building their business plan, actually letting boots hit the ground, to take it from momentum, I look at each step of that across the continuum very differently. Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. In the time I got remaining, Mr. Schmiegel, veteran small business ownership has been decreasing over the years as fewer post-9/11 veterans are becoming entrepreneurs. You discussed that. However, some veterans have found that franchising has helped them achieve their dream of business ownership. So, from your perspective, what is contributing to the decline in veteran entrepreneurship? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think the decline is largely due to the lack of access to capital. You mentioned franchising. Veterans are actually twice as likely to own a franchise than their civilian counterparts. It is across the other small businesses where they are on their own that they don't get to achieve their full potential. So I think we should really look at legislation that is out there that will improve access to capital, and, also, take off some of the onerous regulations that prohibit franchisers from engaging with the small business community, the veteran who wants to own a franchise. The reason they are most likely to succeed as a franchisee is that they have an SOP, they have a playbook, and they have easier capital, access to capital than a small business owner that is doing it on their own. Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much. And I now yield my time back and recognize the Ranking Member for 5 minutes of questions. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Aguilera- Gardiner, you were a Member of the SBA Advisory Committee on Veteran's Business Affairs previously, correct? Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. What is the status of that Committee? Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. The status is I have no idea. I haven't heard back from them. And we did a lot of work when I was on the Committee, and, you know, I would love to find out what the next steps are for that Committee as well. But I have not heard any process, and I don't think that they have had any meetings since. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Okay. Did you see value in the Committee for both veteran business owners and for the SBA? Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes. There was a huge amount of value in that being able to speak to the SBA directly, talking about programs, talking about committees. We were actually on the verge of creating a committee that was there to help veterans connect more with corporations and leading that. And I really did see there was quite a bit of value, and we were able to connect with fellow veterans and organizations across the U.S. that are impacting veteran business' lives. So---- Ms. VELAZQUEZ. What happened to the progress made by the Committee? Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I do not know. I wish I knew. And I have reached out, but I haven't heard anything. But, you know, we worked--we had a couple committees, and we worked very hard on creating this opportunity, new opportunity for veteran businesses. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Well, Mr. Chairman, here we are listening to their stories and recommendations that you are making, but we don't have a way to channel those into SBA so that they could revisit, for example, the different SBA financing programs that they have. Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. And how to reach the veteran community. So I will suggest that we should send a bipartisan letter inquiring as to the status of that committee. Chairman WILLIAMS. So move. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, can you speak to the importance of mentorships for helping veteran business owners start and grow their business? Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I think mentorship is key for anyone starting a business, you know, from the startups to people who have been in business 5 to 10 years. And veteran businesses who have been around for 5, 10, 20 years, having them mentor and share their experience with fellow veterans so that they can get past the red tape and understand which avenue to take, you know, really can help decrease a veteran's time of struggling when they are starting a business. I know, with our programs, so we have two programs, our Veteran-To-Veteran Business Cohort Program, which has a coaching section, a peer mentor group, and, also, our Corporate Mentor of Veteran Business Protege Program is very essential to helping veterans succeed in business. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Yes. Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you, ma'am. What I would say there is we, as veterans, we have discipline in abundance, and we are tenacious as can be. So we can succeed on our own, and we oftentimes do, but mentorship is a force multiplier. And what is lacking now is simple education around what mentorship avenues exist. And so a particular veteran that may be transitioning out of service or one that has transitioned 11 years prior just doesn't know where to start. And so, whether it be commercially, within industry and certainly programs and policies that are put in place, what needs to happen is linking and connecting it all and making it accessible to everybody to better understand. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Ms. Fox, are there opportunities you see around any overlooked or underutilized ways of improving outreach to veterans? Ms. FOX. When improving outreach to veterans I go back to what I said earlier around connectivity. I think veterans are a high-trust group. They will often rely on word-of-mouth to understand what programs are out there. So making those who have succeeded within the ecosystem ambassadors for the ecosystem will be paramount. In addition, one thing that we have to understand is that it can be--someone should not have to be a subject-matter expert in the ecosystem to be able to navigate it. So I think, as we look through how we can do outreach, it is around trust, it is around timing and making sure that, as they continue to move forward, we have interventions, and, of course, it is around that connectivity. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Mr. Schmiegel. Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I would just like to add that the answer lies with us. I think, if you listen to Mr. Lefebvre and Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, that they said the same thing. We don't have a seat at the table. So how do you mobilize small businesses, the 1.6 million across the country, to provide that mentorship? This isn't going to be solved with big nonprofits, big VSOs, and big companies alone. This will be solved by us, veteran small business owners for veteran small business owners. TAP is broken. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman's time is up. Ms. VELAZQUEZ. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Congressman Stauber from the great State of Minnesota for 5 minutes. Mr. STAUBER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you, veterans, for sharing your information with us. But, most importantly, thanks for your service to this nation. 15 years ago my wife left service after 23 and a half years with the Minnesota Air National Guard, the first female command chief in the State's history. We struggled when we were considering opening up a small business with access to capital. That was 15 years ago. I don't think we need any more committees and any more meetings. You said it, sir, 2 minutes ago: The answer lies right here. You have lived it. You have breathed it. You have understood it. You have had some ups and downs. This is important, that we recognize your value to the veterans community. We know the answers because you have given us the answers. Now it is up to us to try to help you out. I don't know where we are from 15 years ago to today, but I am guessing access to capital, navigation, reintegration. We have been talking about that for a long time. You have the answers. And, Mr. Lefebvre, I will tell you that you said something that struck me: There needs to be one single front door, and it has got to be a double door for our veterans. Open those double doors, and they are going to be connected to your great programs. One single door for the veterans, double door, and you will all get the opportunity to serve. I don't understand how that is not done already. We have been talking about this. We have to put our talk into action by investing in your programs. And, when you talk about bringing veteran-owned businesses to all parts of our conference, you are exactly right. We need to take care of the veterans. We have always talked about, and we will always support our veterans. Now let's put that into action. You are all leading in your own respective rights in your own respective communities. I am listening. Usually I have something to pick on here. I don't have anything to pick on. You guys are awesome. This is a great--this panel is one of the best panels that I have seen in the 7 years on small business. Spectacular because you know what you are talking about. You have lived it. You know the hardships. 39 percent of our veteran-owned businesses are in rural America. We can't forget rural America. That is where the veterans grew up, that is where they want to live and raise their family. That is where they are going to die, and that is where they are going to bring economic value. Veterans are so important. The boots that my wife wore in Iraq, her hat she wore in Iraq, and that funeral picture in case she didn't make it back are in my office today. And many Members--this is a bipartisan issue that we can get behind. And I thank the Chairman and the ranker for bringing the four of you professionals, the leaders in your respective communities. The time for talking is over. We need action to support our veterans. I ask each and every one of you to continue to do what you are doing. We have heard it now. In fact, we have heard it several times. It is time to put this into practice. That one front door for our veterans--and, sir, let it be a double door because we have got a lot of American heroes that can bring their entrepreneurship and their leadership to Main Street America, and to rural America. We have asked them to serve our country, given us the freedoms that we enjoy today, you know what I am talking about because you experienced it: Upon your exit there should be reintegration, that front door, and then all the options should be there. We shouldn't have to go down 55 lanes and figure out where you should end up at. I am committed, and I know the Chairman and both political parties are committed to making sure that our veterans are taken care of from start to finish. Thank you for being risk takers. Thank you for your service and sacrifice, and to your families. And I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Ms. Scholten from the great State of Michigan for 5 minutes. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you so much to our incredible witnesses today for taking the time to be here, helping us to do our jobs. For those who served, thank you for your service. To all of you who serve our veterans, thank you for your service to them. I am proud to chair the bipartisan Congressional Franchise Caucus, our goal is to ensure franchise businesses thrive locally, empower workers, and serve as a pathway to entrepreneurship for all. It is notable that, while veterans make up just 7 percent of the overall population, they account for 14 percent of franchise owners. Mr. Schmiegel, my first question is for you, can you speak to why franchising draws veteran entrepreneurs? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Thank you, Representative Scholten. First of all, my wife grew up in Iron Mountain, Michigan. So, when we talk about rural communities and empowering veteran entrepreneurs to own businesses, we are living and breathing that right now. We are moving to northeast Wisconsin, and I can see how what we are doing to create military thriving cultures and communities right there where my wife grew up can really change the paradigm. And I don't care if I have to model it in the town that I live, work and serve. It is just like a veteran entrepreneur to do that. The phrase ``in business for yourself and not by yourself'' is frequently cited because it perfectly encapsulates why the franchise model bridges the gap between military service and civilian entrepreneurship so effectively. In my experience, franchising provides veterans with the operational guardrails they are trained to respect while offering the autotomy and empowering them with the leadership skills they learned through service. The most daunting aspect of entrepreneurship for many veterans is the lack of structure. In the military, survival depends on adherence to SOPs, and franchising replicates this safety net. Finally, the data shows that, when a veteran goes into business for themselves, they rarely stay by themselves. Veteran franchises are 30 percent more likely to hire other veterans than nonveteran owners. Thank you. Ms. SCHOLTEN. That is wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. And we are obviously a huge supporter, and if there is anything that we can do in the Franchise Caucus to elevate your issues, please reach out to me or my team. Moving onto some contracting issues, the Departments of Defense and Veterans Affairs are the largest source of federal contract dollars for both service-disabled veterans and veteran-owned small businesses. In fiscal year 2022, DOD awards accounted for over 42 percent of contract dollars to VOSBs, while 39 percent were awarded to service-disabled veteran-owned small businesses. Similarly, 28 percent of VA contract dollars were awarded to veteran-owned small businesses, and 34 percent to service- disabled veteran-owned small businesses. Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, veteran entrepreneurs bring a skill set and knowledge base that is advantageous for defense-related contracts, but we all know these qualities can benefit contracting in every industry. What more can Congress do to ensure that these veteran- owned small businesses have the tools they need to compete for contracts in other industries? Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Well, I think it is really important that a veteran actually wins these contracts. You know, just to say that they are available, but winning these contracts is really essential to a veteran's growth. And what also happens is, when a veteran wins a contract, that shouldn't be just a one-time thing. They should win contracts over and over, and, also, grow from that. Every business wants to grow. Every business wants to continue to win those contracts. So, by opening up the SDVOSBs and VOSBs and the Rule of Two, these are opportunities that any veteran, and a veteran can actually use these to access these certification to grow their business and to move to that next level. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. Ms. Fox, you seem like you want to say something. Yeah. I want to hear from you. Yeah. Ms. FOX. So, since 2016, we have worked with the Coalition of Veteran Owned Business, which is a group of Fortune 500 companies who have said, ``We will spend more with veterans than our supply chain,'' and when we see that--last year about $238 million were made from connections that we made to those Fortune 500 companies. What I will say is that training without market sets people up to fail, and being able to make sure that those businesses are trained and retooled and that it doesn't require an onerous amount of retooling between government and private sector is paramount. We see great training programs out there. We have them. The Veteran Institute for Procurement has them both in government contracting and newly now in corporate contracting, and that training and those peer networks of people who have been there, done that, and that connectivity, we will continue to see more success. Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you. Very helpful. My time has expired. I yield back. Thank you. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of Pennsylvania for 5 minutes. Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thanks very much to our witnesses. And, particularly to our veterans, thank you for your service very much. So, yeah, like many, I have 45,000 veterans throughout my district. Many of them are entrepreneurs. We certainly want strong transition support, to reduce burdens on regulations, and ensure access to capital. You know, in my former business, we did our best to hire veterans. I mean, many businesses do. You go in. You see their support and their programs. And they talk about it. They kind of, you know, boast about it, which is great. You know, we want more of that. Nevertheless, I do sense, even though the dedication is clear from all of you in your care for our veterans, I also sense frustration. So, you know, we do; our government is bureaucratic. So we are really dealing with two agencies, I guess, right, SBA and Veterans Administration. We have Kelly Loeffler there at SBA, and we have got Doug Collins, who is a former Member, a good friend of all of ours, as the VA Secretary. We should be able to make some improvements here moving forward. So, as I am asking you questions, please just tell me what you want to do, what needs to be done. If you were here, what would you be doing as a priority to help TAP? Like, for instance, Mr. Schmiegel, Colonel Schmiegel, you mentioned that TAP is broken. Well, TAP is a pretty viable--or, actually, it doesn't sound viable, but it is listed as an important program. Maybe you could describe what we need to fix it. Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think we need to start with why it is broken. Think about a servicemember at the end of their service: You don't have a captive audience. In 5 days, you are jamming a bunch of information to an audience that is not really listening. Mr. MEUSER. Right. Mr. SCHMIEGEL. And they have no context. How are they supposed to understand the fundamentals of owning a small business, or, in a gig economy, what job to have? We should be asking them fundamental questions so they discover for themselves: What brings me joy? What is my purpose? And what does my community need from me? Or how can I make money or make an impact with the next chapter of my life? They should ask themselves, what are the five things they need to thrive? In transition, we are just talking about education, benefits, and employment in a gig economy, instead of encouraging them to get these five things. Outside of meaningful employment, the second thing is a sense of purpose through continued service. The third is a connected community or a tribe. The fourth is good health outcomes, physical, mental, spiritual, emotional. And the fifth is the ``kit bag'', those things they need to constantly seek self-improvement so that they understand the strengths that they have and they apply those strengths going forward. All the other stuff that is part of a 5-day course is going right over their heads. So we need to prepare them with the fundamental questions that they have in their lives to succeed. Mr. MEUSER. Are those departments within the VA and SBA sufficiently supported, funded? Do they have enough people in TAP. Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think the programs are funded well. Where I think the common theme today that you heard was access to capital. Instead of investing taxpayer dollars in things that are not having the impact, as we see veteran small businesses decline, use some of that capital, use some of the funding to provide more access to capital. Mr. MEUSER. Ms. Fox--excuse me. Thank you. Access to capital, let's focus there. I am on Financial Services, access to capital is, you know, should be a specialty for small businesses. Tell me what problems there are and what you think we should do to make it better. Ms. FOX. Thank you for that question. 37 percent of veteran entrepreneurs basically say that access to capital is a barrier for them. And, if you look at it, typically they will need about $50,000 to start a business, but they are going to their personal savings. They are going to those areas instead of loans. And why, because as we look at TAP, we are not setting a solid foundation in terms of credit repair. What do you need to do to be successful so that you can then go start your business? And I said earlier, when we solve for transition, we will get there. 43 percent of veterans say, ``We have a tough time with transition.'' And, if you think about it, when someone gets out and they are looking at what their options are, we have more corporate hiring programs. Mr. MEUSER.--your community banks' cooperation. Ms. FOX. They do, yes, but 66 percent of veterans do not know about CDFIs, or any of those options as well. So the issue is not just access. It is readiness. Mr. MEUSER. All right. Thank you. Mr. Lefebvre, last word, I only have 15 seconds left, on access to capital. Mr. LEFEBVRE. Yes, sir. I appreciate it. The only thing that I would continue is in the rest of my testimony is continuity across the entire continuum. It is not just about startups and access to capital at the front end. It also includes exit. The SBA 7(a) loan with a limit of $5 million from a loan is not going to help a veteran that actually wants to pay that forward to another veteran internally. If you are trying to look avenues outside of private equity or some venture capital firm---- Mr. MEUSER. We are looking to raise that up, so thank you all very much. Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you, sir. Mr. MEUSER. I appreciate it. And, again, thank you for your service. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mrs. McIver from the great State of New Jersey for 5 minutes. Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member, for convening this hearing, and thank you to our witnesses for their service in keeping our country safe and for sharing their expertise with the Committee today. The mission of supporting our military veterans as they transition to civilian life and pursue entrepreneurship--the heart of the American dream--unites every Member of this body. We all recognize that these men and women possess a foundation of leadership, discipline, and problem-solving skills that are invaluable assets in business. We must encourage and empower them to build and grow veteran-owned small businesses. This is one of the most meaningful ways we can honor their service and ensure our economy benefits from their exceptional talent. In my hometown in New Jersey's Tenth Congressional District, we see this potential every day through businesses like Dogwood Green Dispensary--there we go--a newly opened veteran-, Black-, and woman-owned business in West Orange. Dogwood Green is the product of three lifelong friends who joined together to build a business grounded in education, community empowerment, and their shared experiences, all while employing hardworking people and stimulating the local economy. When we equip veterans with tools to succeed as entrepreneurs, we uplift an entire community. To each of my witnesses, I have the same question for all of you. Veterans sometimes struggle to translate their specialized military experience into civilian business plans and projections when transitioning to business ownership. What procedures can the SBA standardize within the Transition Assistance Program, better known as TAP, to ensure veterans consistently and effectively translate their military skills into viable civilian business models? Anyone can jump in and start. Ms. FOX. Once we look at--or thank you for the question. Once we look at TAP, I think one thing that would really help there are those warm handoffs. Right now, we are expecting those who are transitioning and figuring out where they are moving to, what job they are getting, et cetera, to also navigate this landscape. As we look at warm handoffs and to resource partners and trusted grantees, we need to incentivize connectivity and referrals so that these resources are at their first best use and also capitalizing on the dollars that continue to shrink in the nonprofit world. Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you, Ms. Fox. Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think the biggest answer, again, lies with us. Veteran small business owners aren't invited to installations to speak on bases and stations to have access to transitioning servicemembers at TAP. They just don't. It is the same big nonprofits with the big companies. And, in a lot of cases, the veteran small business owner is expected to pay to play to actually get on an installation. Not all of them get that access. So, again, if we want to solve this problem, the answer lies with us. Give veteran small business owners like the ones on this panel--give us more access. Give us more access so we can share our stories. You want to streamline frustration and confusion? Let the mentors who represent the veteran small business owners of America talk to the future entrepreneurs who want to be part of this movement. Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you. Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you, ma'am, for the question. I will narrow my answer specifically to entrepreneurship. We invest a tremendous amount into our servicemembers, whether that is in a unique specialty or a generalist. The problem with entrepreneurship is, even within TAP, it is still inconsistent. As great as Boots to Business is, the deployment and delivery of Boots to Business is highly inconsistent. Whether someone is redeploying from Japan, whether they had a ship at sea, how they receive the knowledge is inconsistent, so we cannot fundamentally expect to have a consistent outcome. The other thing that I would say for entrepreneurship is what if we introduced it before TAP? You have a servicemember that is riddled with questions about the future and the uncertainty, and so they may elect to receive a class on entrepreneurship, but really what they are wondering and worried about is what is next, period. So what if our military service branches--and we all say something to some degree that we want to return better citizens post service. And servicemembers go into service for education, for different reasons. What if one of those was this was actually a springboard into entrepreneurship to deploy their ideas that they have? Mrs. MCIVER. Got it. Thank you. Anything to add in 20 seconds? I am sorry. Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yeah. No problem. I think that entrepreneurship is valuable and having that mentorship and also making sure that the veterans who are leaving know about the different options that they have available to them like entrepreneurship and working in a variety of different avenues. Thank you. Mrs. MCIVER. Thank you. Thank you all so much for your expertise. Thank you. With that, I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Mr. Alford from the great State of Missouri for 5 minutes. Mr. ALFORD. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. Today's hearing focuses on a very important mission in my estimation. When our veterans return home, many of them want to start a business and continue serving their communities. They have the skills. They have the discipline. They have the leadership that makes them a natural fit for starting a small business in America. But we also know the reality is that veteran entrepreneurship has declined sharply. After World War II and Korea, nearly half of all returning veterans started a business. Today, that number is just more than 4 percent. Our veterans today are not less capable than they were 70 years ago. In fact, I think they are more capable than they were 70 years ago, but we no longer support them in the way that we did 70 years ago. That is why I introduced the bipartisan SERVE Act with Representatives Davids and Conaway. The House passed it with overwhelming support. This legislation identifies the challenges veterans face when starting a small business and evaluates how military service deployment and transition affects the ability to access affordable credit. Our veterans deserve better. They deserve clear access to resources, to capital, and to the opportunities that they earned. Mr. Schmiegel, I want to start with you. Thank you for your testimony today. In your opinion, what is the driving force behind this precipitous decline, the shrinking rates of veteran entrepreneurship in the last 70 years? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think a lot of it has to do with the same organizations saying the same things with the same agendas in mind. Like, we are focused on the past. When I started Hiring Our Heroes in 2011, veteran employment was at a historic high at 10 percent. Over the last 2 years, it has been lower than 3 percent. So why are we investing all of our resources on a problem that doesn't exist? Three percent unemployment for veterans, but we still think that it is a problem when it is not. How do we invest the same sort of energy, resources, time into getting servicemembers and veteran entrepreneurs to consider a different pathway? It really is a focus of emphasis. Look at HVAC, look at SVAC, and look at the same players talking about the same things. Do you see a veteran small business owner testifying before the HVAC and SVAC very often? Ask ourselves the question. If you really want to make change, put it in the hands of people who are living, breathing, and walking in the shoes of the future veteran entrepreneurs in America. Mr. ALFORD. What can the federal government do to better support veteran entrepreneurs? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think we start with investing--investing in them and make sure that they have access to capital. The difference in our environment right now in this culture is, in transition, servicemembers are entitled. We are talking about their benefits. We are talking about education. We are talking about employment. What happened in World War II and Korea was we invested and empowered veterans to come home and run businesses. We need more of that and less of what is going on now. It is as simple as that. Mr. ALFORD. And, Ms. Fox, I think I heard you say in your previous answer to Mr. Meuser's question that the issue is not access to capital. It is the readiness. Please expand on that. Ms. FOX. Yes. Thank you for the question. Veterans are turned down at a rate about 6 percent higher than their civilian counterparts when it comes to capital. The issue is that veterans will not go back. Unlike their civilian counterparts, once they are turned down, that is it. Mr. ALFORD. Why is that? Ms. FOX. So, typically, it goes back to a high-trust organization, meaning that once they feel like they are not able to access a resource, they don't feel as comfortable going back, whereas a civilian might feel a little bit more comfortable just trying it again. In addition, if you look at limited networks and limited mentoring, because of the nature of PCSs, you look at the fact that they don't have as many people to lean on to say what should I have done there. And that is why we have to create transparency and connectivity so that they are trying to figure out their business and not the system. Mr. ALFORD. Well, thank you to all of our witnesses here today for coming here. This is a very important issue, and I am so glad that our Chair and Ranking Member are taking leadership in trying to fix this issue because it is an issue worth fixing in my estimation. There is no better person to be able to start, maintain, and lead our small business community than veterans. And, with that, sir, I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Cisneros from the great State of California for 5 minutes. Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you and the Ranking Member for this hearing today to try and shed some light on what our veteran entrepreneurs need to start and grow their businesses. I appreciate our witnesses for being here today. As a veteran and former small business owner, I stand with you and I want all our veteran-owned businesses to succeed. But yet again, we are having another hearing with no representation from the SBA, and I am concerned at the SBA's continued absence and silence on issues in this matter--on this matter. Concerns raised by Members of this Committee and by my esteemed witnesses--or esteemed witnesses should not be ignored by those tasked with carrying out the laws passed by Congress. I am the Ranking Member on the Contracting and Infrastructure Subcommittee, and I can't get a straight answer from the SBA about the SBA's contracting programs. Veterans have personally shared with me that their small business contracts were canceled due to the administration's policies, and there was no action by the SBA to support them. So I know the SBA either doesn't care or is actively ignoring them. I join my colleagues in requesting that the SBA and the VA provide Congress with accurate data on the cuts at the VA and the impacts they had on service-disabled veteran-owned small businesses, and we have been met with silence. When I asked the administrator directly about changes to the FAR and specifically the Rule of Two, there was no way to tell if the SBA had been involved. The SBA instead has touted workforce cuts of 43 percent, which has resulted in fewer SBA contracting staff to support our veterans. The SBA has touted leaving major metropolitan areas because of politics with no regard for the thousands of veterans that would be abandoned. The SBA should be here to answer questions, and I hope the SBA gets serious about becoming an active partner in our work to support our veterans, entrepreneurs, and small businesses across this country. And, with that, I will start with questions. Just real quick, do any of you know how many veteran-owned or service- disabled veteran-owned small businesses lost their federal contracts in 2025? No? Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I think it was over 900. Mr. CISNEROS. Over 900. Thank you. Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, why is it important for veteran- owned businesses that sole-sourced contracting thresholds be increased across SBA programs? Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Thank you. When it comes to the veteran growing their business, sole sourcing is vital for them to continue to grow, getting that opportunity that they may not have previously had before. So being able to sole source to a veteran business who is able and capable to do that helps them with the small businesses win those contracts and also that the larger billion-dollar contracts that go to these corporations and actually gives the opportunity to the small business to grow. Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you. As you shared in your statement, veterans are often also women, minority, or are located in underutilized communities, and I want to ensure that the threshold for veterans and all small businesses reflects the current realities and that the tools to meet small business goals are available. That is why I am introducing legislation to streamline and increase the threshold across SBA programs. Is this something that veterans and business networks might consider supporting? Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes. Mr. CISNEROS. All right. Thank you. Again, Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, we should all share the goals of supporting our veteran entrepreneurs in starting and growing their small businesses. Unfortunately, over the past year, the SBA has sought to drive a political wedge in that support and risks leaving veteran entrepreneurs in Democratic-led cities and States behind. When the SBA announced that it would leave Los Angeles, that meant moving away from over 35,000 veteran-owned businesses in the metropolitan area alone, according to the SBA Office of Advocacy. That is more than the State of Alabama, the State of Kentucky, and the State of Wyoming, as well as Iowa. 35,000 veteran-owned businesses in Los Angeles alone. What is the potential impact on veteran entrepreneurs when the SBA seeks to abandon them in these cities? Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Well, it would be devastating to the veteran business community. When you are taking away that instruction and that guidance to work with the federal government, it--you are putting a muzzle on the veteran business community so they can't find these opportunities or even find out how to find those opportunities. Mr. CISNEROS. Thank you. And just real quick, I also serve on Armed Services, and TAP needs to be fixed, and I want to work with all of you. So please come to my office and we can see how we can improve TAP. Thank you. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Wied from the great State of Wisconsin for 5 minutes. Mr. WIED. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today and the important work that you do for our veterans. I would also like to thank Mr. Schmiegel and Mr. Lefebvre for your service to our country. Thank you. As veterans end their military service, many face difficulties entering the civilian workforce. In Wisconsin, we have over 300,000 veterans--with most being Vietnam war veterans, according to a 2022 study from the Wisconsin Veterans Chamber of Commerce--and over 1,700 nonprofits serving veterans in our State, which is eighth most out of any state in the nation. Despite the support that exists for veteran entrepreneurs from these organizations and from programs through the SBA and Department of War, many veterans have difficulty translating their military experience into the civilian world. I will start out with Mr. Schmiegel. I understand you are-- you frequent the great State of Wisconsin on occasion. Florence County? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yes, sir. We are just building a house in Florence County, my wife and I. Mr. WIED. Oh, that is great. So would you say you like Wisconsin or Virginia better, sir? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. With my wife listening, I would say the great State of Wisconsin. Mr. WIED. That is a great answer. Ms. FOX. Good answer. Mr. WIED. Thank you. I want to make that for the record, Mr. Chair. All right. But you brought up a good point. Since veteran unemployment has dropped to 3 percent thanks to great people like you and Mr. Lefebvre, how would you in your--and we talked about TAPs and the issues that you addressed there. How would you--could you reorient existing federal programs to better address some of the issues that you as veterans--and I am going to open it up to both of you, you and Mr. Lefebvre. Is that a possibility? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yeah. I would just say the first three businesses I ran were nonprofits. I hate the word ``nonprofit.'' It is a for-purpose business. And I raised $100 million in private sector capital. I don't think nonprofits should be funded by the government to do this work. I think, again, the answer lies with people like Mr. Lefebvre and myself who were Marines and are living and breathing the challenges that veteran entrepreneurs face. That is why we are creating, at the community level, a military- thriving community playbook. That is why we are automating a tool kit that small business owners who are veterans and military spouses can use. I think the answer, again, lies with us. If that is the one takeaway, we need to give more access to veteran small business owners. And I promise you this, Mr. Wied. In the great State of Wisconsin, we are going to bring veteran small business owners in great numbers. Mr. WIED. That is great. Mr. Lefebvre? Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you, sir. Great question. And I would differ a bit from my colleague here. I don't believe there should be a single point of failure. We are a component of the solution in terms of private industry, but there is a long record of federal programs being highly effective. How we can support this is not the addition of more programs. It is making a coherent link between the programs that exist today. It is about defining outcome-based reports and results of what is working and what isn't, what needs to be retooled. And so I think we have a phenomenal capability right now. It is just not streamlined. It is not coherent. It is unconnected, not just disconnected, and that is why it is so difficult without, as I mentioned, a single front door to come in to understand what the pathway and the map looks like ahead of us. Mr. WIED. I tend to listen to business owners, people that are out in the world signing the fronts of checks. Tell me how do we do that as Members of Congress. What is your suggestion for us? Mr. LEFEBVRE. One, I think we need to have a defined playing field. When we look at VSOs or nonprofits, the accelerators, or any program that has a mission, what are the outcomes? Are we meeting the existing goals? Is there a clearly defined goal currently? And so how we can do that, I think, upfront is to create a study. We can no longer build the plane as we are flying it, right? I think we need to understand what we are seeking out to do, have a true mission and a purpose, and we back plan from there. But we first have to understand where is it broken, where are things not connected, how can we connect and have those handoffs upfront. Mr. WIED. Mr. Schmiegel, would you like to follow up on that? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yeah. I think we have studied the problem long enough. I actually think we agree. I am starting with the fundamental concept. So, if it weren't a problem that big nonprofits and the same big corporations and the same big VSOs--we wouldn't be here today talking about historically low rates of veteran small business ownership. All I am saying is veteran small business owners don't have a seat at the table, so start with that. If we are part of the study, if we are providing both anecdotal and real data on our own businesses, what the challenges were, great. But I don't think the government should fund another study. They should be looking at us for the answers. Mr. WIED. I could not agree more. You are the answer. You, the business owners, the veterans that are out in the field out every day doing the work, and you need to have a seat at the table. I am glad you are here today. Thank you for having this hearing. And if I can ever be of assistance, please let me know. I look forward to seeing you in Wisconsin. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Dr. Morrison from the great State of Minnesota for 5 minutes. Ms. MORRISON. Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking Member Velazquez, for holding the hearing. Thanks so much to our witnesses for being here today. In addition to serving on this Committee, I have the honor of serving on the House Committee on Veterans' Affairs. My husband and my father-in-law are both Army combat veterans, and I firmly believe it is our duty here in Congress to provide veterans with the resources that they have earned, including ensuring they are supported in the transition from military life to civilian life. As we have heard today, many veterans choose to pursue entrepreneurship to start their own business. However, making this transition can be challenging for some due to a lack of access to capital, difficulty acquiring the necessary and relevant training, and trouble receiving contracting opportunities. So, Mr. Schmiegel and Mr. Lefebvre, thank you both so much for your service to our country, and thanks for being here today. Would you be willing to speak a little bit more about making that transition from military service to working at a nonprofit or in the private sector and if there were any programs or resources that were particularly helpful to you in making this transition? Mr. LEFEBVRE. I can start. It has been some years since I transitioned from the Marine Corps. The system then was not helpful to me. It was a check in the box. And I would venture to say that, for many right now, that is a persistent issue. It is a gate before they leave active duty. And so what does that mean? There may be some meaningful information that is within TAP. Again, those that are leaving and electing to take the entrepreneurial track because they have that burning desire, that is fantastic. But, otherwise, most veterans are looking at their benefits and what is next. And so I think what is imperative is to have a handoff. TAP is a class. It is a gate. But what happens thereafter? And it should not be voluntary. There should be an actual handoff to another program, another link in the chain that can help them along that continuum; otherwise, it just falls off. Ms. MORRISON. Yeah. I appreciate that. Thank you. Mr. Schmiegel? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I would just add that TAP did absolutely nothing to encourage me to be an entrepreneur. I was 42 years old when I left the Marine Corps in 2009. If someone had told me then what I know now, there would be no doubt that I would have run more than five small businesses--three nonprofits, and two for-profits. I think, fundamentally, we are talking about the same thing. So, if we are going to invest government money, create a network of veteran small business owners that become a resource for aspiring entrepreneurs who are leaving the military, let's be honest. Let's not create false expectations and create an entitled post 9/11 veteran mindset. Not every servicemember is capable of running a business right after they leave the military. I started Hiring Our Heroes for E-5s and below, for junior- enlisted Marines, soldiers, sailors, airmen to find meaningful employment. They are not going to have access to capital and they are not going to have the runway to own a business for the most part. Careerists, officers, staff NCOs--we should be talking to them at career-level schools, not only for themselves to become entrepreneurs and small business owners, but for them to educate and empower young enlisted men and women who are leaving the military about the opportunities that exist and open up their apertures. Ask them those three questions, the five things they need to thrive. We are not doing that because--when I was Lieutenant Colonel, even in the Marine Corps, I could not tell a young Marine what to do next. How could I know? I had never been in the private sector, which is the same reason a lot of nonprofit leaders who are talking about this who have never run a small business and have never been in the private sector aren't the solution either. So I think it is this network of mentors, of us veterans-- by veterans, for veterans--by veteran small business owners, for veteran small business owners--that is going to solve this problem. Ms. MORRISON. Thank you for sharing. I think there is a real opportunity there. Thank you very much. Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, during your testimony, you mentioned that nearly 90 percent of veteran-owned businesses have between zero and 15 employees, meaning that the vast majority are small businesses. You also noted that when the federal government consolidates or bundles smaller contracts, it can put those contracts out of reach of some small businesses, disproportionately harming veteran small businesses. Could you elaborate on why this is detrimental to veteran- owned small businesses and what actions this Committee and SBA should take to ensure that federal contracts remain accessible to small businesses? Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Yes. Sure. Thank you. As small businesses are the backbone to America's economy, we feel that the veterans is the heart of that backbone. And so, with that, I think when you open up those opportunities and make them bite-sized contracts, that makes it more accessible for the smaller veteran business owner who is under a million dollars, which you find there is, I think, over--actually, 500,000-- which is over 60 percent of when we surveyed our veteran businesses. So, in order to have those $500,000 businesses grow to that million, 2 million, 10 million, you need to make sure that those contracts are able to be a starting point for them so that they can go and access---- Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady's time is up. Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Oh, sorry. Thank you. Ms. MORRISON. Thank you. Thank you so much. I have more questions, Mr. Chair, but I yield my time. Thank you. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields her time back. I now recognize Mr. Bresnahan from the great State of Pennsylvania for 5 minutes. Mr. BRESNAHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to the Ranking Member, and to all of our servicemembers and veterans. Thank you for your service, and thank you to each and every one of you for what you do for our military and families each and every day. I guess my first question would be for Mr. Schmiegel. You mentioned a few different occurrences about not having veterans at the table during those conversations. I am a new Member, so I mean this genuinely. What are some examples that we could be doing with the SBA and in Congress to make sure that those veterans are seen and heard when they are going through the entrepreneurialship process, which is daunting to begin with, let alone transitioning from your service to the country and now looking to be an entrepreneur? Is there any specific examples that you can point out? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. My point was addressing the fact that small business owners ourselves don't have the access to influence the decision-making process to help servicemembers who are transitioning and even veterans who are in transition. I have had seven jobs since I left the Marine Corps. So we are always in transition. We transform ourselves. We earn the title soldier, sailor, airmen, Marine. We need to earn the title veteran, too. The point I was making, if you--again, if you look at other committees that are part of the House and the Senate, you don't see small business owners like us creating a voice and having a seat at the table. If you look on installations, it is the same big players that have preferred access. Small business owners aren't at TAP, small business owners aren't generally at hiring fairs, and small business owners aren't influencing and empowering young servicemembers to consider these opportunities, whether it is when they are transitioning or later in life. We are not planting the right seeds because we don't have access. That was the point. Mr. BRESNAHAN. So do you think it is that--you know, is it the access to lending opportunities? Is it the access to counsel? Like, you know, I am trying to think about--I was a highway contractor in my last life. I am new to political public service. But, you know, I was thinking about all the different hurdles and challenges that we had to go through to grow the company and to be able to expand at the different demographics, and it was daunting, and I can only imagine applying the same thing as a veteran. And thank you for your service once again. But is it, you know, making sure that we are driving and steering policies that are more inclusive to our veterans that are looking to take that next step? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yes. And, to my point about committees like these on both the House and Senate side, including veteran small business owners routinely rather than the same nonprofits, the same VSOs, and the same big corporations that fund those same nonprofits and same VSOs. We should just have a seat at the table--at least one of us--on hearings like these. I think that would affect policy decisions. I think people would be more considerate about the problem that exists in this country. Listen, this is a national security imperative. Shipbuilding, sub building, semi-con, energy--the major industries have massive supplier diversity networks, and we are seeing veteran small business owners' ship crash. Not, like, decline. Crash. The reason this economy grew and the reason the United States realized excellence and became the strongest global power is because veteran small business owners came back from World War II, came back from Korea, and even came back from Vietnam, and they grew the economy. We need empowerment, not entitlement, and we need veteran small business owners as part of the solution. Mr. BRESNAHAN. Well, thank you for that. I am going to pivot over to Ms. Fox. Obviously, you work with a plethora of veterans that leave their time in service and then pivot into the private sector or to be entrepreneurs. How do you navigate some of the mental health challenges, or are there any specific repetitive trends that you have noticed for someone pivoting from a longer tenure of service into the private space? Ms. FOX. Thank you for the question. Currently, some of the fastest growing areas of veteran small business are those that have spent 20 years in service and then starting. When we look at mental health, we at the IVMF have several pillars, and we have one that is around community-coordinated care. How do we get the right person to the right resource? One thing that we do is we are backing everything that we do by data. So, after a program, we look at how many new connections did you make. In our CEOcircle program and our EBV programs, typically, about 98 percent of our graduates will say they made seven or more connections. What does that mean? It means that now I have an expanded network. I have expanded cheerleaders. And, as you speak about mental health, we actually track that in our entrepreneurs, and they have a higher sense of wellness than those who are not serving in this area because of that connectivity. So I do think that, you know, data is extremely important, and I do think that that is another way that we can include veteran voices in it by understanding exactly their needs and wants and delivering on that in programming. Mr. BRESNAHAN. Well, thank you, again, all for being here. And I think, Mr. Schmiegel, you are taking the first step on being in the SBA Committee here, and thanks for taking the time. And, with that, I yield, Mr. Chairman. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. Now, I recognize Mr. Olszewski from the great State of Maryland for 5 minutes. Mr. OLSZEWSKI. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to all of our witnesses today. I am just really passionate about this issue and grateful for the work that you all are doing in this really important space. I think that, across the board, we spend far too little time lifting up those who have given everything to this country, and I think it is high time that we do more to acknowledge that service instead of leaving people behind after that. So I guess, in addition to the conversation that we have been having today about what we can do from the business perspective, do you all have any thoughts about ways in which we can merge other veteran services with access to business so it sort of becomes a holistic approach to how we are meeting the needs of our veterans here in this country? And I am happy to just leave that as an open-ended question to anyone who wants to jump in there. Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think what we are trying to model--I was part of the Presidential Leadership Scholars program, and my project as part of the PLS program was to model military- thriving communities. This is a very complex and visionary concept because, if you cross the border from Virginia to North Carolina, there is a sign that says ``the most military- friendly state in the nation.'' Well, what does friendly mean? Are you doing us a favor by giving us a job, letting us pay our taxes? Are you doing us a favor by letting us run our small businesses? So we are modeling military thriving across multiple stakeholder groups, across the public-private nonprofit sector, and really focused on outcomes. It is fine to attract people to your State. What really matters is you keep them there. And if you look at the State of Maryland, you have 14 installations, right? So measuring how many servicemembers are transitioning each year from Maryland and how many are staying by creating a thriving community--not a friendly community, a thriving community--and measure what matters: Affordable housing, healthcare, dual incomes, not just the veteran but the military spouse. After ZeroMils did a Military Thriving National Change Forum at Georgetown in October of 2024, I went to 15 communities. I can tell you what the best practices and lessons learned are. So we are modeling military-thriving communities, and the first State that executes that model will win the war for talent. They will win the war for business owners. They will win the war for civic assets. And I think this--this is a competition between governors, mayors, city councils. If they want our talent, if they want our revenue, they have to go from friendly to thriving. Ms. FOX. Thank you for the question. Eighty two percent of entrepreneurs are still starting businesses because of opportunities, so ensuring that those opportunities still exist will be key. I think as we look at, again, how can we combine all these things, we host military entrepreneurship forums across the United States linking together nonprofits, corporations, and those who are not just VSOs in terms of how can we serve entrepreneurs, and we have to do so holistically, not only looking at social determinants of health, but challenges and connectivity as well. And I think that that is why we are launching a member council tomorrow that includes corporations, nonprofits, as well as veteran entrepreneurs to understand what can we be doing better from a policy ecosystem, connectivity, and collaboration. Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I was just going to agree with Misty. I mean, collaboration, working with other groups, knowing what other people are doing, you know, in a variety of different aspects, you know, from transitioning to start-ups to actually even succession planning is all valuable information that any veteran business needs to know. And if we work together, we can only help the veteran business community continue to thrive. Mr. OLSZEWSKI. I appreciate that very much. And our office, as I am sure many Members of this Committee, look forward to working with you on that holistic thriving, certainly in this space with small business, but all the ways that we can win that war for talent for America and for our communities. Just to close, Mr. Chairman, on that point of partnership, I think that is a really important theme there. You know, in good faith, we do try to communicate with our partners in the administration, and I know that, you know, I have sent letters of concern to VA Secretary Collins and have joined myself and individually, and it is frustrating when we are trying to advocate for all of these services and all of these opportunities to not have a Secretary be responsive to Members of Congress. I think that is the only way that we can, in good faith and in that partnership, really understand what they are doing and ways in which we can do better and be better. And so to the extent, Mr. Chairman, you and others are able to help us get those answers, we certainly appreciate that so that we can take the lessons learned from panelists like today and really move forward together. And, with that, I yield. Thank you all very much. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Jack from the great State of Georgia for 5 minutes. Mr. JACK. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank our witnesses for your testimony today. And if I could start with you, Mr. Schmiegel, I am curious. I want to talk a little bit about--we have seen recruitment efforts expand under President Trump's administration and delightfully so. We see more people wanting to join our Armed Services. And I am just curious. As our military plans to capitalize on that positive momentum, do you think communicating the advantages and opportunities for veterans to become entrepreneurs should be emphasized as more of a benefit in our nation's recruitment efforts? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. A hundred percent. I think the challenge that we have with recruitment--I wrote about this in an op-ed in The Hill a few weeks ago, and I said November 11 is not about serving veterans. November 11 is about veterans serving America. I think over time, since the Global War on Terror began, this proliferation of a broken veteran narrative has shaped propensity to serve and the willingness of young people. We have to tell the stories of successful small business owners, veterans who have gone back into society and have contributed to this country, the economy, and their communities. The more you tell young people that service leads to positive outcomes, the more likely they are to serve in future wars. Mr. JACK. Thank you very much. I noticed a positive reaction from you as well, Ms. Fox. I welcome thoughts from you on that. Ms. FOX. Thank you for the question. I think that anytime you can lead with opportunity will be great. As I mentioned, 82 percent of veteran entrepreneurs see that as an opportunity. And what we know is that, as you get out of the military, that sense of service and those peer-to-peer networks are paramount. We have the CEOcircle program that we run. Chris Lefebvre is a part of it. We have seen those graduates through those peer-to-peer networks get over $1.3 billion in capital and create over 650 jobs. So there is a huge amount of opportunity not only in the small business area but also as employees for those firms. I think one important thing is to make sure that they are not burdened by the regulations and other items that are taking away from the attention to starting and growing businesses but, obviously--as I said at the end of mine--that veterans have defended and built the American dream. They need their opportunity to make sure they can live it. Mr. JACK. Well said. And, Mr. Lefebvre, I am curious. As a veteran business owner, what additional training or educational opportunities do you wish you had received when you were still in the military that would have made the transition to becoming a business owner easier and more approachable? Mr. LEFEBVRE. At the time, nothing. It wasn't an idea that I had. Again, I did not know it was in the realm of the possible. And so, for me, offering an idea in TAP is a step forward. It is. But it has to start before then, the communication, the narrative. But the reality of taking specialized training, integration among a team, all of the leadership experience that is built over any servicemember's time--it needs to be able to be communicated that it does translate to the private sector. It does. And this is a viable option. But the communication has to start far before they are about to take their first step out the door. Mr. JACK. I am curious. Just in closing, as we wrap this hearing, Mr. Schmiegel, any closing thoughts and comments that you think should be punctuated as it relates to what we can do better to help serve our veteran business owners? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think, as much as possible, to talk to other Members in Congress. Whatever committees they are on, I think there is a fundamental responsibility to include veteran small business owners in conversations to get their input, to get their feedback, and to get the struggles that they turned into strengths, the challenges that they turned into opportunity, the trials that they turned into triumphs. I struggled myself with mental health issues after I left purpose-driven work at Hiring Our Heroes, but I found my way back to thriving. I found those five things that I needed in life. Not just meaningful employment, but a sense of purpose through service, a connected community and my tribe. I took better care of my health like I did when I was a Marine, and I am constantly seeking self-improvement. I want the same thing for every servicemember and every veteran. So I think small business owners are at the heart of growth, change, and impact, and we--we need a voice. We need a seat at the table. So, as much as you can encourage the HVAC, the SVAC, the Small Business Committee on the Senate side, Appropriations, anywhere that people will listen to us, I think we are going to make leaps and bounds improvements in what is happening right now with the decrease in small business ownership. Mr. JACK. Well, we are blessed to have sitting beside me a colleague in my freshman class, a veteran who is an incredible entrepreneur himself and an incredible business owner. So I am privileged to have that leadership on our Committee, and I think as--to you note, I hope more and more people get elected to Congress like Mr. Downing who have that incredible experience not just in the military but also the business life as well. Thank you very much. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Dr. Conaway from the great State of New Jersey for 5 minutes. Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When looking to ensure that small businesses have access to capital, it is also important to study what barriers small businesses face when attempting to access that capital. As Members of Congress, it is essential that we find ways to remove those barriers in order to provide the equity of access for small businesses across the nation. One of the greatest obligations Congress has is to ensure that men and women who served our country have all the support that they need. As a veteran myself and a Member of the House Veterans' Affairs Committee, I was proud to introduce the SERVE Act alongside my colleagues Congresswoman Davids and Congressman Alford. This legislation commissions the Government Accountability Office to study and report on the ability of veteran and reservist small business owners to access credit. This bill additionally requires Interagency Task Force on Veterans Small Business Development and to--a report on an action plan to promote the programs available to veterans. It is important that this important piece of legislation passed the House on the 24th. However, much work needs to be done. Ms. Aguilera-Gardiner, can you speak more on some of the unique issues that veterans face when starting the process to access capital? Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. Access to capital is one of those funny things that when you need it, you can't find it, and when you don't need it, you know, you can get it. So, yeah, it is definitely something that a lot of our veteran businesses have struggled with, even ones that are quite successful. One of our veteran businesses was just telling us that he was--he has a $42-million business that he is trying to get access to capital to win more contracts, and he had a hard time actually accessing capital for these future contracts. He had to go several times and try different ways to access some more capital in order to win these contracts. So we cannot have access to capital be a barrier for the veteran and small business community when they need it. These are people who have--he has had a successful business. He has shown that he can, you know, repay these loans and this investment. So we do need to make sure that we are just not rejecting veteran businesses or any veteran businesses for capital on minor things. So we really do need to pay attention to what kind of veteran business or what kind of business it is and look at the bigger picture and access--and give them more access to capital when they need it. Mr. CONAWAY. Ms. Fox, you had a comment? Ms. FOX. I would just like to--yes. I would just like to add a few of the statistics behind it. Thirty seven percent of entrepreneurs do face difficulty accessing capital, but 52 percent of all entrepreneurs say that they need more tailored financial products as their finances grow. And I think that that is really important, is that it will not be a one-size- fits-all model. That is why we like to say it is about capital readiness. How can I get you ready for the right capital at the right time so that you can find it? And I think that is, again, back to navigation and credit repair at an earlier time, including during transition, so that we have a solid foundation so that business opportunity and business start-up is more of an option earlier. Thank you. Mr. CONAWAY. Go ahead. Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Yes, sir. I actually grew up in the State of New Jersey. My dad, a Vietnam-era veteran. I moved back when I was young, and I spent my formative years in Toms River, New Jersey. So it is great to see you. Mr. CONAWAY. Oh, friends there. Mr. SCHMIEGEL. And thank you for your service, too. I would just say we probably should look at what is happening in franchising versus just small business ownership in general. I mean, I think there are a number of opportunities there. There is a reason veterans own franchises at twice the rate of their civilian counterparts. And across all other businesses, we are seeing this nosedive, so we should study the two and look at the difference. ZeroMils is working with a company called Neighborly. It is the largest home service and maintenance company in the world. They were modeling military-thriving cultures. They have a goal of 20 percent new veteran franchise owners across the enterprise. It is 19 domestic brands representing 5,500 small business owners. Five hundred of them are veterans right now. The reason their programs are so successful is they provide better access to capital than a normal business owner. So think about the Vietnam-era veterans who are leaving their small businesses right now. That is why we see this nosedive, too. Let's say there was a veteran named Joe who owns a plumbing company. He could be handing that off to a younger veteran in franchising called Mr. Rooter, right? We have to think about these things and think about how we can streamline these processes. But I think we should study the two. There is a reason there is a difference, and any legislation that supports the franchising community should be considered as well. Mr. CONAWAY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Mr. Downing from the great State of Montana for 5 minutes. Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you all for being here. This is a topic that is particularly interesting to me having been an entrepreneur, having served in the military, and having served on organizations that mentor transitioning servicemembers out of the military careers and into the private sector. And, you know, for me personally, you know, I am a little bit of an anomaly. I was building a national real estate company--a commercial real estate company when I got activated in 2005 and sent to Afghanistan. And I was in combat search- and-rescue. My day started at sunset and ended at sunrise. So, during daylight, I was having wet-ink signature documents FedEx'd to Kandahar from conduit lenders as I was building my portfolio. So, you know, I have been in the trenches, you know, in more ways than one. But a couple things I want to talk about, and anybody who has served in the military understands this. You know, the military members--servicemembers are particularly suited for building small business. I mean, what are the issues that you have in starting a company? First of all, you have to have some risk tolerance. I mean, military, you understand risk tolerance. The other thing is you have to understand the value of teamwork and having the ability to put together a team and to depend on your team. And that is another thing that I think about often with these opportunities with servicemembers. When you are serving, when you are at the peak of your military career, you are the best person on this planet that knows how to do what you know how to do. You know your place. You know how to do your job. You know that you can depend on your team, and your team knows that they can depend on you. And you come out of that. You transition out of the military. Let's just face it. Most military members are not going to thrive being a greeter at a department store. You have to have something that drives you, something that has that risk, something where you are building a team and working on that team. So I think that, you know, the service community, you know, post service is particularly suited for this. And, you know, we have got about 1.9 million businesses across the United States that are veteran-owned. I have got about 12,000 in my home State of Montana. And I just really love this topic because it is something that is near and dear to me. I want to transition a little bit to discussing some of the barriers that veterans face when looking to start a business. Mr. Schmiegel, in your testimony, you mentioned that, for the first time since the end of World War II, veterans are less likely to own a small business than their civilian counterparts. You know, from your experience advising aspiring veteran entrepreneurs, why do you think this decline has occurred? Why do you think this has happened? Mr. SCHMIEGEL. Excuse me. Representative Downing, thank you for your service, too, sir. I appreciate your perspectives as an entrepreneur as well. I talked a little bit about this in my oral testimony. I think if you look at the GI Bill--post-World War II GI Bill versus today's GI Bill--there is a difference in empowering veterans who are coming home to own a small business versus post-9/11 veterans, which is more entitled. We are talking about their benefits, we are talking about traditional employment, and we are talking about education for a 4-year degree. We are completely missing the mark with the younger servicemembers who are leaving and with veterans and the opportunities that exist for them. So, in post-World War II GI Bill, there were low interest business loans. It is as simple as that. So, as we are investing money from the GI Bill, is there an option--is there an option for veterans to use their GI benefits to get the education, the training, and the capital they need to start a business like they did in World War II when 50 percent of veterans came home and started and operated a small business? That is the fundamental question. Mr. DOWNING. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Lefebvre, from your perspective as a veteran business owner, what factors do you believe have contributed to this decrease? Mr. LEFEBVRE. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question, and thank you for your service, sir. As you mentioned, and as I said in my testimony, this is not a talent problem. It is not a capability problem. I mean, the entrepreneurial system itself has evolved in such a way. It is so vast. It is so complex. And you have the transitioning servicemember that understands a truly codified system with guardrails on it--from SOPs, from culture, from mission- driven--and they are leaving that completely scared of what is next. And so although we can operate in an environment that deals with volatility and uncertainty and combat, the thought of what happens in civilian life is fundamentally polar to that. And so I think the fact that there is not this road map, there is not a clear SOP or process--which, in the military, that is how we operate--it is even more uncertain. So I think that that fear and lack of certainty aids in it. Mr. DOWNING. Right. So I am going to move on a little bit in the interest of time. Despite developing skills in their time in the military, servicemembers often lack access to capital and networks needed for effective entrepreneurship when they retire. There are federal programs like the DOD's Transition Assistance Program, SBA's Office of Veterans Business Development, et cetera, helping this. So I am going to move to Ms. Fox. From your experience working with veterans through the Institute for Veterans and Military Families, how would you assess the current effectiveness of the SBA and its outreach to aspiring veteran entrepreneurs? Ms. FOX. I think right now, the challenge--thank you for the question. I think right now, the challenge with that outreach--in the interest of time--would be the connectivity. So making sure that veterans know about the resources and are ambassadors of the resources will be key. Mr. DOWNING. Well, thank you. Unfortunately, I have run out of time. I can talk about this all day. But thank you all for your testimony. And, with that, Mr. Chair, I yield. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize Ms. Goodlander from the great State of New Hampshire for 5 minutes. Ms. GOODLANDER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so much to our witnesses for being here today. Mr. Schmiegel, Mr. Lefebvre--tell us how to pronounce your name. I have heard it seven different ways. Mr. LEFEBVRE. Lefebvre. Ms. GOODLANDER. Lefebvre. Thank you. I want to thank you both for your service to our country and your continued service to our country as entrepreneurs and what you are doing for our small businesses. This is such an important topic. I serve on the House Armed Services Committee, and I am really grateful that you are here today. When I think about the transition from service to start- up, it is really the ultimate expression and continuation of patriotism in its purest form, and I am very focused and committed to doing everything I can on this Committee and on the Armed Services Committee to make the changes that we know we need to see. You know, I am the proud daughter of a Navy veteran who went on to start a small business. I served in the Navy. And every single day on this job, I get to see in my great State of New Hampshire what veterans are doing for our small business-- for our small businesses and for our economy in New Hampshire. And, in New Hampshire, we are very lucky. We are outperforming the national average of veteran-owned small businesses. We have got more than 8,000 of them across our State. They are 7 percent of small businesses overall, which is above the national average. But, as you point out very powerfully, when we look over time and in our history, you know, at the height of just after the Second World War when the GI Bill was written in a way that was going to be most useful to us, 50 percent of servicemembers went on as veterans to start small businesses. We have talked about the reasons why that is the case. You know, this is--it is the teamwork, it is the ability to transform challenges into opportunities, it is the basic focus on problem-solving. You see a problem, and you find a way to fix it. And I just want to say I recently had a chance to spend some time with a veteran who started a small business in New Hampshire. He really put everything he learned and everything he did to serve our country in the military into starting a small business. He saw a problem, which is that our country relies on China and Russia for critical minerals in a way that is very dangerous to our national security. He saw specifically that germanium, a critical mineral that is used in optics that keeps our servicemembers equipped, could be recycled and in a way that was actually going to help our bottom line for our economy and for our national security. And he started a small business that actually recycles germanium and could be a huge-- of huge value to our country. So this is one of many examples that we see. But one of the things I hear again and again is that the Transition Assistance Program--and I have heard it from both of you today--the Transition Assistance Program, or TAP, is of very little value to most veterans who go on to start small businesses. I want to ask you both, having gone through that program, was there anything that worked in it, and can we count on you to help us think through the changes that need to be made to TAP to really make it worth our while? This is a program that should be doing a lot more work than it is doing now for our country. Mr. LEFEBVRE. Thank you for your question, and thank you for your service. As you also went through TAP, you likely have an individual experience. What I would offer--I did get some benefit out of it. Thinking back--and, again, I exited in 2008, 2009 timeframe--it was a very different TAP then than it is now. And so I did learn about education and benefits. And so for me looking back, in honesty, that was the sole benefit. And one of the primary challenges with the TAP program right now is it is a one-size-fits-all solution for every servicemember regardless of rank, specialty, and experience. And that is really challenging to be effective when it is simply a one-size-fits-all. What is for a lieutenant colonel when he is retiring and coming out of TAP and a PFC that is exiting after 3 years--those are two very different needs, and it just isn't an effective program as it is written now to cover that wide breadth. Mr. SCHMIEGEL. I think TAP has evolved a lot, to Mr. Lefebvre's point. There is an executive TAP course that kind of creates that differentiation so that careerists--officers and staff NCOs that serve for 20 or more years--have the opportunity to learn about these opportunities at greater rates than some of our junior-enlisted folks that are in the military. I think this is--again, I don't want to be contrarian, but closing apertures by allowing the same organizations to impact TAP with a GS-12 who had never been in the private sector or even a nonprofit leader--giving them access over people who are actually living and breathing the challenges is the problem. We need to open apertures. We need to help servicemembers make better, more informed decisions based on, like, what are their strengths? What are their weaknesses? Like CliftonStrengths, right? What do you want to do with the next chapter of your life? The problem that we have is we put in their brains that they need entitlements when they just need to be empowered. They earned the title just like you did, right? You earned the title sailor. You earned the title veteran, just like you are serving today. That is what I want them to know. And that directly relates to the next generation serving our country. They see us as broken, too. Sixty two percent of young people in America--this is DOD's figure from 2023--think that every veteran and every servicemember leaving the military will have a psychological disorder. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman's time is up. Ms. GOODLANDER. Well, I thank our witnesses, and I yield back. I look forward to working with you. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize Ms. King-Hinds from the great Northern Mariana Islands for 5 minutes. Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the witnesses for making time to be with us today. So as the Chairman has said, I am from the Northern Mariana Islands, and the GAO reports that we have the second highest enlistment rate in any State or territory, second only to Guam. Right. Which means that in a couple of years most of the people in my community are going to be veterans. And there isn't a single household in the CNMI now that does not have a veteran living in that household. I am sitting here and I was preparing for today's hearing and I was looking up some studies that have been done with regards to some of the barriers that vets face when it comes to financial literacy and small business lending. And this 2023 report states that the biggest barrier basically is building credit and financial history, challenges obtaining financing from large banks, limited networks, mentoring or business relationships, low representation in SBA back loans, weak program, oversight and inconsistent support from SBA. But when they conduct these reports there are no suggestions sometimes with regards to how do we fix it. What is the policy change. And I want to do less talking and hear from you, each of you to give your insight. And we will start with you, Mr. Schmiegel. Mr. SCHMIEGEL. First of all, I think you hit a really important point, like my dad was a Marine, my son is a Marine, I am a Marine, so this handoff from generation to generation needs to be addressed, too, and we need to make sure that we continue those legacies of service. You know, for me, the opportunity lies with actionable solutions. So I made a point earlier in my testimony that I am not crying in my milk, like I am literally creating actionable solutions with a number of stakeholders in communities. So we will be in Charlotte, we will be in Dallas, we will be in Southern California modeling the solution. I think small business owners are at the heart of this, and we are going to mobilize big businesses, nonprofits, government agencies at the State and local level where this will be solved, and then replicated in other places. So the solution, again, is the most important thing. And in the absence of anything changing, we are going to create a seat for veteran small business owners at the local level, model it, create the first military thriving region of the country, and then show people what right looks like. It will be the small business owners that will answer the problems that exist in this country. Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you. Ms. FOX. Thank you for the question. And to add to that a little bit, if you really look at what gives strength in capital readiness, credit and underwriting, coaching, I think that we have some opportunities to create veteran specific underwriting guidance that might look at nontraditional forms as capital and revenue streams as qualifying as income. I think that we also have to look at what are the amounts that veterans are going for. So if you look at startup, it is about $25,000. And if you look at scale, it is $50,000 or more. That is typically not a bankable amount. So there is a continuum of capital access that needs better education around when do you go to the right part of capital, and at what time so that we can lessen the amount of denial. As I mentioned earlier, veterans are denied at about 6 percent higher than their civilian counterparts, and that right there is critical because once that denial happens, it starts to shut down the opportunity of business ownership. So I think through a connected network and through resources that can offer in-kind provisions so that veterans aren't having to spend every dollar on every small thing, and, also, shared peer-to-peer networks we will solve for capital access because veterans will then better understand what resource do I go to, how do I get ready for it, and how can I access it. And that is a big challenge that we have right now, that veterans will look for capital in the wrong places and that will hurt their chances to grow their businesses. Ms. KING-HINDS. Thank you. Mr. Lefebvre. Mr. LEFEBVRE. Yes, ma'am. I think the direct answer to your question is to look in the Veteran Entrepreneurship Empowerment Act already. I mean, there is a waiver of an SBA guarantee fee for loans less than or equal to a million dollars, there are lowered down payments and equity injection requirements for small loans, as Ms. Fox is talking about, and mandated data collection and transparency on those SBA loans, for the direct answer to the question. But you mentioned something that is potentially far more important when we think about the continuum here, it is financial literacy. And so what are we doing while veterans while still active duty are broadening the nature of what they know. It is too late when they have exited and now they are trying to figure out the parameters of a loan and why they are not qualifying for it. Ms. AGUILERA-GARDINER. I was going to agree, pathway to credit repair, sometimes when you are looking for a loan as a small business and you don't have any options, you have to go to a nontraditional and the interest rates will kill you. So, you know, looking for financial literacy so you don't have to go to those nontraditional loan places. Thanks. Ms. KING-HINDS. I am out of time. Thank you. Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back. And I want to thank our witnesses today. It has been a great panel, and we appreciate all of you for your testimony and for appearing before us today. Without objection, Members have five legislative days to submit additional materials and written questions for the witnesses to the Chair which will be forwarded to the witnesses. And I would like to ask the witnesses to please respond promptly if that happens. If there is no further business, without objection, this Committee is adjourned. May God bless, and have a great holiday and Christmas season for you. [Whereupon, at 12:12 p.m., the committee was adjourned.] A P P E N D I X [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]